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31388 No. 31388 ID: 38b610

It feels like you want to tell me a serious story, but you're not really trying.

The story is generic and inconsistent - if she's such a badass that she can kill anyone, which from the way it's being presented (Isuzu/Michelle/WEEABOO FANCY strikes "badass" poses while elaborating on her desire for revenge) seems to be the case, then why is she such a pushover for bullies in the first place? Since there's no mention that the bullies are anything but heartless monsters, I presume I'm supposed to see WEEABOO FANCY as being in the right in her lust for their blood, but if she's really been playing sleeping wussy hidden dragon the whole time then it's more of a cruel plot on her part, which for me pulls the moral stepping stool out from under her feet.

Also the art is horrible, try to learn how to draw each character in more than a grand total of 3 positions for your entire chapter, kthx
Expand all images
>>
No. 31389 ID: 75d7a9

hmmmmm, you have a point, how could the 'bitch' sneak up on her and taze her ass if she is supposed to be good at killing? but, it looks like she was having a vision of someone promising to protect her at the time, which if that ALWAYS happens right before someone tazes her then that is just fate being a dick. also tazer bitch apparently ran up to her and tazed her just because she was standing there.
>>
No. 31392 ID: a7a85a

I for one thought the art was pretty solid. Scenery recycling with slight changes is nothing new.

I did have the same issue over the conflicting violence and ineptitude of the girl. Maybe she was just talking big.

To be fair, she never said she was good at killing. And anyone can make anything a weapon in the way she described it. It could be she just has violent fantasies never enacted.

And yeah, the end did seem like a kick in the teeth, but not outside the realm of possibility.
>>
No. 31394 ID: f88f02

The problem here is that you're supposing the main character of a quest must me morally in the right. They don't. I'm not even speaking as an amoralfag, I'm just saying that it's just fine to have a quest with a "Fuck this shit, I'm gonna murder people" character.

Hell, one of the quests revolves around a souleating golem.

So your 'Moral' argument is unjustified.
>>
No. 31399 ID: 8787da

There might have been better ways to write and introduce the plot hook and the protagonist to us, but honestly, it's not really that bad.

If it was the quest author's intention to tell a serious story, I would have to agree with the OP that the author did not really succeed. From the thread I got the feeling it's a "whacky violence and comedy" quest.

The qualms with the art I do not get. The art is very good, imho (for this medium etc.).
>>
No. 31400 ID: 749219

>>341188
Well, I accept your criticism and I will try to change some things for chapter 2.
The story isn't really that serious in the beginning, but I promise you it'll take a turn with some characted being introducted.
as for the art, I don't usully draw like that, I just wnted to buy some time for the scenery, as my big weakness always was perspective.

First, Izu IS a weeaboo, as you'll see when you meet some friends of her. And she never said that she was good at killing -- she said that, in theory, she has what it takes to just KILL someone, not to do what comes from a murder(like running away from the police).Also, she's absolutely crazy, just has some reasons to be liek that -- what moral stool?

Also, she was trapped by Julia and the girls, thinking that the person who was stalking her was the person she was expecting.Let's just say that she gets really vulnerable when it's about him.

But yeah, it's my first time doing a story like this, so I'm trying to adjust my pacing/art/everything else.This criticism will help me doing that.Thank you.
>>
No. 31405 ID: 8d8786

>>341188
...I don't even read the quest in question but this opening post is unbearably rude, and I certainly don't think we should be encouraging such people to start opening up their own threads on Questdis just to complain about whatever quest/author they don't fancy.
>>
No. 31411 ID: 252e1b

>>341205

I must agree, but only because of the cheap parting shot in the last line of the OP. The majority of the OP's criticisms were valid. Art in quests is a non-issue, it's usually quite bad no matter which quest you look at.
>>
No. 31413 ID: 8e5432

>if she's such a badass that she can kill anyone, which from the way it's being presented (Isuzu/Michelle/WEEABOO FANCY strikes "badass" poses while elaborating on her desire for revenge) seems to be the case, then why is she such a pushover for bullies in the first place?
Probably some crippling character flaw which stops her from being effective without us, same as many other characters most notably Muschio Malto.
Probably she's a pussy when she's actually interacting with people, but with us to back her up, will grow some balls. Metaphorically speaking. Seems pretty sensible to me.

Also the art is fine. There should be more poses I guess but those will add up as the quest goes on.

>>341205
Criticism helps people impeove. Fuck your hugbox mentality.

>>341200
>Let's just say that she gets really vulnerable when it's about him.
No. Fuck that shit. Illustrate in in the story, realistically. Or don't, and leave it ambiguous and not really super noticeable like it has been. Don't come into discussion and say shit like that, it detracts from the story itself.

Also,
>Let's just say
This phrase is shit in general. I would advise against using it.
>>
No. 31414 ID: f604d6

>>341211
>Art in quests is a non-issue
Fuck you.

Fuck you and everything you stand for.
>>
No. 31416 ID: 252e1b

>>341214
It is though, if you'd man up and be objective enough to admit it.
>>
No. 31417 ID: 2eac65

>>341213
>Criticism helps people impeove.
There's a difference between criticism and abuse. Being critical isn't an excuse to forego basic courtesy, or to

>Fuck your hugbox mentality
do that.
>>
No. 31418 ID: bf1e7e

>>341216

You are wrong. Art in quests definitely matters. It isn't the single most important aspect, but it is definitely relevant.

Only a fucking moron would argue that art was unimportant. If you take three quests with the same quality of writing, the one with the best art will be better than the one with the weaker art, which will in turn be better than the one with no art.

Even if you are an ignorant savage with no aesthetic tastes, that doesn't change the fact that criticizing the art in a quest with it is no less relevant than criticizing the writing in a quest with none. A text quest full of shoddy, meandering prose and shitty knockoff characters would be a bad quest even by the standards of text quests,[b] and criticizing it would be valid. The same goes for the art in art quests, as by including art [b]the art becomes a part of the quest and is fair game for criticism.
>>
No. 31421 ID: 38b610

>>341200
>Let's just say that she gets really vulnerable when it's about him.
To rephrase what Cruxador said, it is most certainly not clear from your storytelling.

>And she never said that she was good at killing -- she said that, in theory, she has what it takes to just KILL someone, not to do what comes from a murder(like running away from the police).Also, she's absolutely crazy, just has some reasons to be liek that -- what moral stool?
What reasons? Give them in the story. The fact that Isuzu is the protagonist and that she bills herself as an agent of karmic justice or of God gives me the impression that the story wants me to believe she is in the right. And what I think of her personality aside, it seems to be reinforced by the fact that Isuzu ispainted as a spotless person. Her hair is perfect, her clothes unruffled, her room devoid of clutter.

>First, Izu IS a weeaboo, as you'll see when you meet some friends of her.
Again, you don't make this clear. The fact that she has both a Western and a Japanese name, without any explanation for why that is so, gives me cause to think that this is a self-insert for a depressed wapanese. In any part of a good story, the beginning no less, you have to give a clear and not misleading stepping stone for your readers to be able to judge Isuzu's character.

And why don't you talk about her home life, which must have had a big role in her getting to where she is now? "Good" parenting, or the lack thereof, plays an enormous role in a person's development. Perhaps her parents had different beliefs about how to deal with each other and with their child and fought constantly, creating in Isuzu a cognitive dissonance where she believes people should treat her nicely (the belief of one parent) but anyone who shows the slightest disapproval of her is unworthy of her politeness (the other's conflicting belief).

I'm not saying all characters must necessarily elaborate on their "interesting" family histories, or that they must necessarily be the way I described, but for someone like Isuzu it seems especially important to make your readers understand why she is as crazy as you say she is. You don't have to put the whole explanation at the very beginning, but you should at least start leading into it. Otherwise, you gloss over what should be a primary plot point in a truly intriguing story, and it just becomes a psycho killer flick as intellectually vacant as A Nightmare on Elm Street.
>>
No. 31422 ID: 38b610

>>341221
Let me rephrase a sentence in my second paragraph: Isuzu is the protagonist in a story told from the first-person perspective, and so it gives me the impression that the story wants me to believe her when she bills herself as an agent of justice.
>>
No. 31423 ID: 8e5432

>>341217
>There's a difference between criticism and abuse. Being critical isn't an excuse to forego basic courtesy
This is true! Luckily, people are being courteous while criticizing, and no abuse has occurred.

>Fuck your hugbox mentality
Well, that wasn't really criticism, although it would certainly be possible for you to make a positive change to your own attitude based on that comment. But I mostly posted that because fuck your hugbox mentality.
>>
No. 31425 ID: 2eac65

>>341223
>no abuse has occurred.
>FUCK YOUR HUGBOX MENTALITY

>>341218
>fucking moron
>ignorant savage
I could go on, but it's as clear as it can be made.
>>
No. 31428 ID: 38b610

>>341225
Why is it a bad thing, even if it is "abuse"?
>>
No. 31430 ID: 749219

...I really didn't mean to start a flamewar.

>>341221
Your arguments are completely valid.About the "she's perfect, the story wants to put her as a warrior from God" thingy, ever read/watch Death Note?
About the glasses boy, "R", I really thought I made her weakness when she was about to pass out from the tasing.But looking back, really it does need to be expanded.

I won't say any more.As Cruxador noted, I should just keep quiet about the plot.

Oh, nd about the art.If I thought it wasn't an issue, I would just do a stickgirl in a ponytail and say: "That's Izu for you guys!".
>>
No. 31431 ID: 2eac65

>>341228
Because it hurts people's feelings, and hurting people's feelings is bad. That's why it's important to be polite when you're being critical. Abuse is neither.
>>
No. 31432 ID: a41aaf

The quest has barely started so there's tome for plenty of DRAMATIC REVEALs of character backstory later. But I do have an issue with the ending of chapter 1: it is not immediately obvious whether Isuzu's flashback/blackout occurred due to her being tazed, or whether it occurred spontaneously and she was tazed while spacing out.
>>
No. 31433 ID: c71597

>>341221
The story hasn't really been going on for long. Character exposition is probably something that will come in time.

As for the mental instability, we have been told that she has been hearing voices since she was young. That's not really a sign of being sane. Quite likely that she is schizo, possibly with paranoia added on top of that. Which is not good for sanity, quite a few serial killers has had that combination.
>>
No. 31434 ID: 38b610

>>341231
Why is it bad? Can you explain that?
>>
No. 31435 ID: 38b610

>>341233
>The story hasn't really been going on for long. Character exposition is probably something that will come in time.
That may be true, but I will repeat: The story should lead into this from the very beginning.

>>341230
>Your arguments are completely valid.About the "she's perfect, the story wants to put her as a warrior from God" thingy, ever read/watch Death Note?
I haven't, but even if Death Note does its story similarly, I think my criticism still holds. The fact that something is popular does not necessarily make it better.

>About the glasses boy, "R", I really thought I made her weakness when she was about to pass out from the tasing.
Physical weakness isn't so much important in a character as mental weakness - an aspect of the character that makes them less than what you believe is a paragon of a thinker, and makes them human in the eyes of the reader. In tragedy it's called a tragic flaw; and while some might say that humanizing aspects aren't necessarily tragic flaws, in so saying they forget that all humans fall, eventually.
>>
No. 31436 ID: a41aaf

>death note
tl;dr main character logically justifies mass murder while remaining morally reprehensible.
>>
No. 31437 ID: b28ada

>>341235

Stories with enigmatic protagonists can't be interesting now? Stories can be just as easily be lame if they all start off with "I am X son of Y, and I'm doing A for reasons B and C." There are plenty of good quests that involve first person where not only we, as the participants, but also the characters don't know things about themselves. It's can just as likely that the story will be for the better if we find out stuff later. You have no idea what will result in the future. As for your point about mental flaws, remember that this is being told from the 1st person. We could have an unreliable narrator. Time will tell if flaws come to light in the course of the story.

>>341228
>>341234

That's kinda how the word "abuse" is defined. If abuse is occurring, it is by definition negative.
>>
No. 31439 ID: 38b610

>>341237
Perhaps. Time will tell, as you say, I suppose.

>That's kinda how the word "abuse" is defined. If abuse is occurring, it is by definition negative.
Negative does not always mean something is bad, depending on the situation. Perhaps I am doing something that seems negative now, but what if there is a long-term benefit? Should I not endure, say, hard exercise, if I want to be fit in the long run? Should I not endure harsh criticism if I aim to be both a better artist and a more resilient person?

What I am asking you is this: If it is bad for those posters you criticize to try to impose stern judgment on someone, what makes you think it is necessarily better to put it gently to them?
>>
No. 31440 ID: 38b610

>>341239
Or more gently, in any case.
>>
No. 31441 ID: 8e5432

>>341225
>fuck your hugbox mentality
That's not abuse. It's an honest recommendation. Also you're a bitch and we were discussing criticism to Executioner

>Seal being Seal
That shit is normal. That's just how he talks.

>>341230
>...I really didn't mean to start a flamewar.
No worries bro. We do this all the time.

>ever read/watch Death Note?
Just because Death Note did something well doesn't mean you can too. Besides, a huge part of the point of Death Note, at least early on, was that he was a real exemplary dude, before he got his pinch of power. And you shouldn't mimic existing media too heavily either.
That said I think you're doing it just fine.

>>341231
If somebody's feelings are that fragile on the internet, then they need to man the fuck up.
>>
No. 31442 ID: 8e5432

Oh yeah also
>...That bitch, Julia...! Using my weaknesses to ambush me!
People aren't that upfront about their weaknesses. Or any other aspect of their personality.
>Dammit, R!Why do I miss you that much?I wouldn't be here if I didn't run away to get to you...
This is way over the top.

People are saying shit here and you're listening to it, which is good in theory. But you're overcompensating by a fucking mile. Don't. You were doing better being less explicit. In particular: Show, don't tell.
>>
No. 31443 ID: bf1e7e

>>341225

Who, exactly, was I abusing with those statements?

Abuse, by its very nature, requires a target.

Of course, it may be more prudent to take this to IRC so as to not clutter up a discussion thread with a tangent.
>>
No. 31444 ID: 2eac65

>>341241
>That's not abuse. It's an honest recommendation.
It is neither honest nor a recommendation, merely a random attack, and there was no justification for it. It isn't criticism, because it didn't illustrate or indicate a mistake of any kind.

>No worries bro. We do this all the time.
Some people do. Other times, we manage to get things done in spite of them.

>If somebody's feelings are that fragile on the internet, then they need to man the fuck up.
Blaming the victim. You are responsible for your own actions.
>>
No. 31445 ID: bf1e7e

Okay no, seriously, that's fucking enough. Like I said in the last post, argue about abuse in IRC. Anyone else posting in this thread about this entire line of argument is getting banned for 3 days.
>>
No. 31446 ID: f88f02

Show, don't tell. One of the MOST important parts of storytelling properly! You have art. Her room could have been decorated by Higurashi posters or some shit, if you wanted to make her weeaboo. If she's supposed to be vulnerable around x dude, make it clear in how her mannerisms change in the art. If you have to tell us something, here, in this thread, you're failing as a storyteller. Especially if you have a visual medium to help you.

The quality of the art is fine. The way you use it needs a little work.

I stand by my feelings in regard to the moral aspect of the quest: Rather, there isn't one. There isn't one that should be expected. Quest authors can easily make interesting stories about whatever moral standpoint they want, whether it's an unrepetant murderer, a deposed prince who wants to be the greatest evil, or ponies who want to retrieve bags or fix clocks.
>>
No. 31447 ID: 749219

I'm just testing around with this quest.This is a sudden idea that popped up in my mind one day, and I decided to see what happened if I made this idea into a quest.

Cruxador,I need to say that you are giving me really good ideas to keep this quest in shape, along with reasonable criticism.Also, the Death Note thing was a comparation I made on the spot.

My very first idea was "What if we accompanied and led a girl on her way to revenge?" And I just went and made a quest.Now I do have the plot almost all set up, just waiting for "Little X" to turn this story inside out.
>>
No. 31455 ID: 15b51b

I don't think any other quest on tgchan has ever gotten a hate thread made about it, much less one like two days after it started.

If you think The Executioner's art is even in the bottom 50% of tgchan quests, you clearly weren't here for our first year or so. Even these days, we get quests with terrible art which nobody spazzes out about.

Hell, it took me a minute to realize this wasn't a new Gnoll quest.
>>
No. 31458 ID: 54af1f

What are you guys even talking about? This quest is maybe 3 days old. Not everyone is characterized well yet but it's only just starting.

Sheesh. I've never seen a quest with such awesome art attract such hate so quick.
>>
No. 31461 ID: 2eac65
File 129816846319.jpg - (18.02KB , 459x478 , playful_bunny.jpg )
31461

Okay, we've had more than enough of that.

Here! Look! It's a bunny rabbit! Isn't it cute? Doesn't it just melt your heart? Doesn't it make you wish we could all get along and stop arguing about hate and rudeness and all that icky stuff?
>>
No. 31462 ID: 8e5432

>>341247
It's looking good so far. All the plusses of a Reaver quest, without the squicky fetish stuff. And those were pretty popular, so this'll do well.

>>341245
This is wise.
>>341244
Seek me out on IRC for a refutal, if you care.
>>341260
Seek me out on IRC for an explanation, if you care.

>>341258
Advice != hate

>>341255
>I don't think any other quest on tgchan has ever gotten a hate thread made about it
Well, you're wrong. Especially if you count this level criticism by people who are clearly already engaged to be "hate". But prior to now, most of this sort of thing has happened in the anon thread. Since that's dead and gone, we can predict more of these, until and unless someone makes a generic "roast of /quest/" thread.
>>
No. 31464 ID: 38b610

>>341258
>>341261
You people disgust me. Do you honestly dismiss all this criticism as mere hate?
>>
No. 31468 ID: f88f02

>>341261
>>341258
>Hate
Really?

If we really hated it, this thread wouldn't exist. What we're trying to do is turn obvious potential into something even better than the current offering.
>>
No. 31471 ID: 70c94d

>>341268
Lie.

People only create threads if they LOVE something or HATE something. Nothing in between.

What happened here was something which started simply as quest-bashing (hate), and then OTHER people began to give advice (which was a reaction to the overly negative OP, else they wouldn't have GIVEN A SHIT).

And now people start terrible meta-arguments about the intentions of other posters, WHICH IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA, because people's IQ drops in relation to their amount of "assuming" and "interpreting".

Observe further quest development and draw conclusions then.

I will hide this thread now.
>>
No. 31476 ID: 54af1f

>>341264
>>341268

Let me make this a bit clearer. The reason I criticism your criticism/advice giving is that I really don't think Executioner NEEDS it. It's got pretty good art, and I'd like to see where its going.

I'm mostly mystified by how it generated this thread. It's great... so why would the author need a mass of advice on how to do it?
>>
No. 31483 ID: 8c0848

>>341255
I'm not good enough at animu to draw Executioner.
>>
No. 31484 ID: 8e5432

>>341276
Everyone NEEDS a mass of advice. Having a whole bunch of opinions on what you're doing is integral to making something that appeals to a lot of people. It allows for much greater improvement than sitting in an echo chamber. Of course, not everyone gets that advice. Executioner is already one where people care enough to give it. This is pretty unusual since it's not from an already popular author. It thus ends up seeming a bit abnormal because most folks are on IRC and get shit of this nature there. They also have discussion threads already, from earlier quests, where this stuff gets discussed. 00Km doesn't come on IRC to my knowledge, and there wasn't a discussion thread prior to this.

So this is where it happens.
>>
No. 31489 ID: 749219

>>341283
And if I tried to color my panels, I would...die.

>>341284
Yes.Let me say one thing: If this discussion/"HAET" thread didn't start, Executioner would be utterly DOOMED.Just compare Chapter 1 with Chapter 2.The art improved, and there's much more interactivity between Izu and the players.(I had a panel with Izu smashing the door window with the backpack ready with me.You really got me on surprise there).
As I already said, I made the first four panels -and posted them here- on impulse.OP was absolutely right on the "not trying" issue.This very discussion thread has saved an entire quest.
>>
No. 31496 ID: 252e1b

>>341218

The trouble is that for nine of ten quests being run, the art is different degrees of "utterly terrible." For the majority of quests, the art achieves a score of "does not rate." It'd be a big fat zero except that the norm is for the art here to be shitty. For the one of ten quests that does have decent art, sure, it counts. But for the most part the art in Quests is just another excuse for a hugz fest.

Now the art outside of Quests proper, on the Oekaki board and on the fun side-pieces that show up in Quest-Discussions, that sometimes has merit. I guess that's because the authors take the time they need there, instead of letting the moment rush them into producing sub-par work. And that's cool.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that most quest authors suck at doing anything quickly, and that we should not let the worst parts of their Quests drag down the rest of the game.
>>
No. 31500 ID: bf1e7e

>>341296

>the art achieves a score of "does not rate."

Oh no, it certainly rates. Even bad art rates far more highly than none.

After all, the writing in 9/10 text quests is equally shitty. Are we just supposed to not judge those quests in any way at all?
>>
No. 31501 ID: 252e1b

>>341300

Considering that they were mostly made to appeal to the vanity of the authors, yes. Yes, that's the right approach to take. Do not criticize them, either ignore them or ladle adoration on the authors for having the temerity to post their shitty art and crap story for the entire world to see.

Maybe jerk them off too, I dunno, that part is up to you.
>>
No. 31502 ID: bf1e7e

>>341301

Thanks.

It's not often that someone makes enough of an ass of themselves to make me look like the reasonable one. This is like a rare gift, one to be savored.

I suppose that's all that needs to be said here.
>>
No. 31503 ID: 8c0848

>>341296
What about terrible, terrible writing? There are certainly quests with terrible, terrible writing, right?
>>
No. 31504 ID: 252e1b

>>341303

Yeah, usually the quests with bad art have bad writing too, but sometimes it's the other way around. If the quality of the quest's art or writing falls below a certain level I just ignore it in terms of assigning value to that quest.

Once in awhile the art or writing is so bad that it actually detracts from the quest. The Executioner suffered from that for the first part, with the writing being so poor that it detracted from the rest of the story. Nice to see this author is shaking it up a bit though.
>>
No. 31506 ID: 252e1b

>>341302

Hey I'm just telling you what I think. And what I think is that most quests would be much better if the authors took some real pride in their work and put some time into it. You can tell who does and who doesn't, and the ones who don't take the time to make a quality product bitch the loudest when you call them out on it. It's better to not waste your time on them, bro. Unless you're a part of the circle-jerking sycophant party, I guess.
>>
No. 31507 ID: bf1e7e

>>341304

That's because you're a massive tool. Art and Writing are both aspects of a quest, and a weakness in either aspect weakens the quest as a whole. Neither should ever be ignored.

The formula always goes Good > Bad > None, for both art and writing. Trying to pretend that no comparison can be made because you can just ignore it is the sort of hugbox faggotry that you're trying to accuse the people saying art matters of.

Which pretty much makes you the biggest fag in the world for your 'jerk them off too,' comment.
>>
No. 31508 ID: 8c0848

>>341304
That's why I never went past the first few posts of Golem Quest. The writing is so awful with no pictures to distract from it, I couldn't go on.
>>
No. 31509 ID: 252e1b

>>341307

What I've been hinting at, what I've been trying to say without just outright saying it, is that most "quests" are so shitty that they aren't actually quests. They're just platforms for the author to boost his self esteem. If the authors put some time into them they'd actually rate, but they don't. The art is usually so awful that you either need to ignore it or go ahead and let it detract from the overall experience. The writing usually tends to range from "serviceable" to "first week of undergrad creative writing 1" with a significant chunk of "complete pap" cluttering things up.

I'd disagree with an absolute metric like "Good > Bad > None," too, because sometimes a component of a quest is so terrible that it actively detracts from the pleasure of reading it.
>>
No. 31510 ID: 8e5432

>>341308
:coolface:
>>
No. 31511 ID: 8e5432

>>341309
Get your pointless bitching out of here. I know there's no more anon thread, but that doesn't mean you should do that in here.
>>
No. 31512 ID: bf1e7e

>>341309

>because sometimes a component of a quest is so terrible that it actively detracts from the pleasure of reading it.

Name me one quest that the art actually detracts from in a meaningful way.

Your entire (retarded) argument boils down to how dreadfully common this is. Do you have any examples at all?
>>
No. 31515 ID: 252e1b

>>341312

Hell I'll name one of YOUR quests.

http://quest.lv/kusaba/questarch/res/275963.html

Take this for example: http://quest.lv/kusaba/questarch/src/129632258137.png What the fuck am I looking at here? Seriously, what the fuck is that supposed to be? It's a confused mess of lines, with absolutely no care taken to make sure that the action is clear and the respective silhouettes of the two characters there clean enough to be easy to pick out.

Now, in fairness to you, the entire quest's art doesn't fall to the depths of horribleness that that particular image achieves. But most of the art isn't good enough to add anything of value to the quest. The quest itself has issues with being derivative and simplistic, and what little writing there is there falls into the trap of being completely dull 2nd person narration.

This: http://quest.lv/kusaba/questarch/src/129631290646.png is a good one-frame piece for a quest. It's nice and clean, there are action lines, and it's obvious what's going on even if you don't read the narration. That's the bare minimum for art that actually adds to a quest.
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No. 31517 ID: d677cc

>>341315
So, basically, you're saying that an image that was drawn as part of a two-image sequence, the contents of which are quite obvious if one views the two images in succession, is "horrible" because when taken in isolation it's not nearly as obvious? I'm sorry, but what?

And, for that matter, you're criticizing the quest's writing based on the narrative mode? Again, I'm sorry, but what?
>>
No. 31519 ID: bf1e7e

>>341315

>What the fuck am I looking at here?

Well, if you look at the picture that came before it, it becomes obvious that Giggi is flopping downward onto Barioth's head. Fantastico~!

I suppose I shouldn't have expected such a thing as 'understanding that the picture follows from the picture that precedes it,' but hey I guess I'm just too optimistic.

>The quest itself has issues with being derivative and simplistic,

Derivative of?

You're basically just screaming at the top of your lungs that you have nothing to actually say, no idea what you're talking about, and nothing better to do than to troll me. Do you actually have something to support your statement?
>>
No. 31520 ID: 8c0848

The whole time this guy has been screaming at the top of his lungs that everyone who draws a quest is just doing it to get attention, meanwhile he screams and flails for attention by calling everything shit without producing anything at all of value. He's just a whiny little shit with too much free time and not enough sense. If you don't like the site or it's content or it's users, go somewhere else. Otherwise it's pretty obvious that you're just attention whoring by trying to convince everyone that your singular opinion should be accepted by everyone.

Just shut up and fuck off, god dammit.
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No. 31524 ID: 252e1b

>>341319
>Derivative of?
The quest uses characters from Monster Hunter instead of providing much of anything actually original. The plot amounts to "misunderstood monster's big day out." There's not much of anything original, or even interesting, there.

>Well, if you look at the picture that came before it, it becomes obvious that Giggi is flopping downward onto Barioth's head. Fantastico~!
Yes because http://quest.lv/kusaba/questarch/src/129632255130.png is so totally clear too. It suffers the same problems, with the sole benefit of a wider field of view, so that the cave frames the mess of lines interacting. I picked that frame out as representative of art that detracts from a quest, and I stand by it. In that case you'd have been better off to skip the art entirely than post those two frames.

>>341317
>And, for that matter, you're criticizing the quest's writing based on the narrative mode?
No, I'm saying that part of the problem with the quest was its narrative mode, which was boring as shit.
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No. 31525 ID: 252e1b

>>341320
>Just shut up and fuck off, god dammit.

Oh goodness, criticism that you don't like! Come on, I've stated my opinions here, and been solicited for clarification on them. If you don't like that, tough shit, go back to doing whatever you want. I'm not forcing you read this. No one is.
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No. 31526 ID: bf1e7e

>>341324

>The quest uses characters from Monster Hunter instead of providing much of anything actually original.

Uses character DESIGNS from monster hunter. Gigginox has no character to speak of.

>There's not much of anything original, or even interesting, there.

That's because it was a shitty one-shot quest.

>Yes because http://quest.lv/kusaba/questarch/src/129632255130.png is so totally clear too

Yes, it is. Just like you are clearly retarded.

>I picked that frame out as representative of art that detracts from a quest, and I stand by it. In that case you'd have been better off to skip the art entirely than post those two frames.

In what way does it detract from the quest? The entire point of the quest was a gigginox dicking around doing cutesy versions of things gigginox does. Actually drawing it doing those things is critical for doing that.

>Oh goodness, criticism that you don't like!

It's not that he doesn't like the criticism for no reason; it's that he is sapient and therefore capable of realizing that your chriticism is baseless and retarded.

>Come on, I've stated my opinions here, and been solicited for clarification on them.

And then chose not to provide any, instead choosing to attempt to troll me by trying to find a way to finagle one of my shitty quests into fitting your description even when it does not; just because I'm the one with whom you happen to be attempting to argue.
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No. 31527 ID: 8c0848
File 129826462793.png - (136.33KB , 800x600 , important message.png )
31527

>>341325
HEY EVERYONE. I WANT YOU TO DROP EVERYTHING AND LISTEN TO ME ABOUT HOW I HATE ATTENTION WHORES. NOW I WILL RANT ABOUT HOW I HATE PICTURES AND ONLY ENJOY LONG BLOCKS OF DRONING TEXT. MY OPINION IS RIGHT AND YOURS IS WRONG SO THERE'S NO POINT IN ARGUING. I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOUR SHIT SCRIBBLES AT ALL AND YOU'RE ALL HORRIBLE ATTENTION WHORES.
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No. 31528 ID: d677cc

>>341324
>And, for that matter, you're criticizing the quest's writing based on the narrative mode?
>No, I'm saying that part of the problem with the quest was its narrative mode, which was boring as shit.

...

I... what?

Do you... do you not know what the words you are typing even mean?

You seem to be somehow trying to say that you're not criticizing the quest for its narrative mode and are instead just criticizing the quest for its narrative mode.
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No. 31529 ID: 383006

>>341327
See, the art makes this post.
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No. 31531 ID: 749219

...We aren't even discussing about Executioner anymore. This wasn't what I planned for my quest at all.

I do accept criticism, and even the OP's rather harsh comments made me plan, draw, and execute(no pun intended) Executioner better. If any of you still care.

Even if this thread becomes absolutely empty, I still ask of you to take this discussion to a more appropriate place.
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No. 31532 ID: 749219

>>341325
Also, no one is forcing us to read this shit, but you are forcing your stupid arguments not even related to my quest anymore. Goddammit.

tl;dr : It's a thread about Executioner. DISCUSS ABOUT EXECUTIONER. Or don't, but if you're here, stay on track.
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No. 31534 ID: 8e5432

>>341326
In all honesty I have no idea what's going on in that image either. Or at least, not in the foreground portion. I do recognize the cave as being a cave.

>>341331
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Shit happens. This thread has now gone to shit, and is not likely to get better. Except for better in the sense that >>341327 is a fairly amusing image, I guess.

If you want further discussion of Executioner I would advise that you make an official discussion thread for it.
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No. 31535 ID: 749219

>>341334
That's what I am going to do.

Fuck this, I'm outta here.
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No. 31538 ID: 252e1b

>>341326

I gave you props for the stuff in the quest that I thought made sense, and I criticized the parts I thought were shit (which includes the narration, but is not limited to just the narration).

>That's because it was a shitty one-shot quest.

Cool. But it's pretty representative of the chaff that's all over the Quests board.
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No. 31539 ID: bf1e7e

>>341338

It being a shitty quest does not mean that the art made it worse.

It is certainly shitty, but it wouldn't be better without the art.
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No. 31540 ID: 8c0848

>>341338
Well then, you'd better tell us what you consider good, so we can NOT mock you and laugh at you.
>>
No. 31541 ID: 55c4cf

Lady Giggi is not a good representation of /quest/ as a whole. It is a 'good' example of what you think is a problem.

The quest would have been terrible without the images. Most of the writing is sparse, or bad, and I have not seen a single text quest beyond Furries For Jesus who can cover description in order to replace art as a whole.

There aren't even that many image quests that describe or visualize everything clear enough, but most do a good or great job.

Mind you when I say, "most," I mean the quests that are long running. One shots, and people who start and give up and leave don't fit into the collaborative 'sampling' of how i view quest.

It would be like measuring up the talent of a cooking school by taste testing food of people who attended three classes and dropped out.

Images make quests. Sequential art is a fantastic format, and I hope everyone who works on it and stays with it learns and improves from it.
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No. 31543 ID: 252e1b

>>341340
Fine, let's look at your recent quest http://quest.lv/kusaba/quest/res/282165.html then. The art is decent (as in it doesn't actively detract from the quest, though it is not always used to best effect), the writing is ok, and the premise as presented so far is utterly unoriginal (it smacks of a dozen other horror stories like "The Mist").

>Suddenly the trash can in the alley flips over and spills all over the ground. I can hear something in the darkness yowling as it runs off. Oh god!

That is flat. It's serviceable, but very flat.

"My breath caught in my throat and I jumped in surprise at a terrible clatter from the alley behind me. I cautiously peered around the edge of the brownstone building and caught sight of some little creature scampering off into the darkness, yowling. It's just a cat. I think."

Even that's not that good, but it's not nearly as flat.
>>
No. 31544 ID: 252e1b

>>341341

Going by your criteria there are only about a dozen active quests on the site, period. I'm talking about the entire record of quests that have been Archived or that are in Quests right now.

It's way worse if you include Graveyard, which I have not.
>>
No. 31545 ID: bf1e7e

>>341344

You have still yet to even -validate- your criteria, so it makes you kind of a fag to rip on somebody else's.
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No. 31547 ID: bf1e7e
File 129826860720.png - (3.31KB , 750x750 , GETIT.png )
31547

>>341343

>My breath caught in my throat and I jumped in surprise at a terrible clatter from the alley behind me. I cautiously peered around the edge of the brownstone building and caught sight of some little creature scampering off into the darkness, yowling. It's just a cat. I think.
>>
No. 31548 ID: 91e24e

terrible clatter (useless adjective)
cautiously peered (redundant)
brownstone (who cares)
It's worse than flat, it's gratuitously verbose.

Now what do you like?
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No. 31550 ID: bf1e7e

>>341348

>Now what do you like?

hmmm.....

>It's worse than flat, it's gratuitously verbose.

10bux on Golemquest.
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No. 31551 ID: 252e1b

>>341345

My personal criteria for quest art: It should be clean, and it should be obvious what's going on even if you don't read the narration. That's the bare minimum for art that actually adds something to a quest.

My personal criteria for quest writing: It should be at least somewhat dynamic, and if the second person perspective is used extra care should be taken to not fall into the trap of flat narration.

My personal criteria for quest stories: Show some originality, you're investing your time here, the settings and basic stories should reflect that.
>>
No. 31552 ID: bf1e7e

>>341351

>My personal criteria for quest art:

Allow me to clarify.

You have yet to establish any sort of situation on quest where art makes a quest WORSE.
>>
No. 31553 ID: 8c0848

>>341347
Nobody talks like that. Nobody thinks like that. Internal dialogue in that situation would likely consist entirely of "OH SHIT, WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT. OH, IT'S A FUCKING CAT. GOD DAMN." so unless I was writing from the perspective of a flowery homosexual, I would never write what you suggested.
>>
No. 31554 ID: 252e1b

>>341352

http://quest.lv/kusaba/quest/src/127096526355.png

What is this? Is it a cafeteria lunch platter? A space ship control panel? A collection of tools? It is a mystery unless you have the contextual cues from the post that picture accompanies. It is distracting. When the art actively distracts from the parts of the quest that do make sense, you're better off without it.
>>
No. 31555 ID: 252e1b

>>341353

I'm not telling you to write what I wrote, I'm saying that authors should aspire to write prose that isn't insipidly flat.
>>
No. 31556 ID: d677cc

>>341351
So, art and narration that work in concert to convey their message are bad, in your mind? If I want to have the art basically convey what in standard prose would be conveyed by descriptive language, this is somehow bad and wrong?
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No. 31557 ID: bf1e7e
File 129826949682.png - (3.31KB , 750x750 , GETIT.png )
31557

>>341354

Couldn't say without seeing the quest that it came from.

>>341355

>to write prose that isn't insipidly flat.

Again. Redundant.

There is a reason nobody is taking your claims of HORRIBLE FLATNESS seriously.

You realize that, when you have a picture, you don't need paragraphs of text describing the minute details that the picture covers, right?
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No. 31558 ID: 252e1b

>>341356
>If I want to have the art basically convey what in standard prose would be conveyed by descriptive language, this is somehow bad and wrong?
It's bad and wrong if it doesn't actually achieve that.
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No. 31559 ID: d677cc

>>341354
>>341358
You seem to be basically saying that if you have to read the text and look at the art to understand what is going on, then it is too hard for you to understand.

I really hope you never try to read a comic book.
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No. 31560 ID: bf1e7e

>>341356

Keep in mind that this guy's examples for 'standard prose' are about as purple as it gets outside of parody.
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No. 31562 ID: 38b610
File 129826990563.jpg - (54.50KB , 500x497 , pendulum.jpg )
31562

>>341354
The one in the top left looks like the cover of In Silico.
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No. 31563 ID: d677cc

>>341359
Actually, hell. Both of your examples have literally been "if I take this picture and ignore the context created by the words next to it then I don't know what it means, and therefore it is distracting and bad."

I really hope you never try to read a comic book.
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No. 31564 ID: 8c0848
File 129826998948.png - (133.58KB , 800x600 , more important message.png )
31564

>>341347
YOU IMBECILES JUST FAIL TO COMPREHEND MY GRANDIOSE INTELLECT. I AM SUPERIOR LINGUISTIC ARTISAN AND YOU CANNOT GRASP THE WONDER IMPARTED BY THE AMBROSIA THAT IS MY WORDS. KNAVES, I CAST YOU OUT TO WALLOW IN YOUR OWN PETULANCE.
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No. 31565 ID: 252e1b

>>341364
Now see, that's completely clear, even without context.
>>
No. 31566 ID: 8c0848

>>341365
I should hope so. I'm laying it on pretty thick.
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No. 31569 ID: 8e5432

Rain Cream (pony name of poster 252e1b) is a pretty effective troll. Unfortunately, there are some pretty significant detractors to this performance. Firstly, he chose an easy target, and a target that is known to be easy due to anon thread shenanigans. Secondly, he invested a lot of time and effort into this. Thirdly, his efforts are neither fun nor particularly interesting. All in all, I'll give him a 6/10.
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No. 31570 ID: 70d9eb

art and text in a beautiful entwine much like the majestic leopard slugs in their extensive mating ritual, each relying on the other to produce something magnificently magical. truly this is what a quest is *smokes pipe*
>>
No. 31571 ID: 383006

>>341351
>My personal criteria for quest art: It should be clean, and it should be obvious what's going on even if you don't read the narration. That's the bare minimum for art that actually adds something to a quest.

This is so retarded I don't know what to say. Your 'bare minimum' is probably never met by any quests with images on the board. Doing clean, dynamic art that conveys the action is definitely what all artists doing quests should be aiming for, but you seem to be ignoring the medium that you are viewing in your criteria.

Art doesn't tell the story all by itself unless there is almost no complexity whatsoever. The art adds mood, character, and style to the text of the quest - each part should compliment the other. A quest is more like a comic book than an individual picture and individual story running side by side (and yes, I know that there are some comics with no text whatsoever, but I think you get what I'm saying). It should form a unitary whole.

When there is a drastic disconnect not done for humor, then you do have art actively detracting from the quest - when there is an unintentional mismatch between the art style or quality and the type of story that is being told. Alternatively, if the art is bad and frustrates attempts to understand what is going on, that would obviously also be art that detracts. It has certainly occurred on our board more than once.

I would say that several quests have suffered from one or the other of these problems, but I'd say it isn't even the majority.

>My personal criteria for quest writing: It should be at least somewhat dynamic, and if the second person perspective is used extra care should be taken to not fall into the trap of flat narration.

I think you are ignoring the medium to some degree here as well, especially since your definition of narration that isn't 'flat' is apparently 'extremely purple.' Quest authors have to understand that they are building a story that promotes interaction with an audience. Overly descriptive text can hurt a quest, and in quests where the suggesters are hearing the thoughts of the protagonist, the text should reflect the way that natural people think. The text should be more like a comic than a story because people are going to try to take as much away from the picture as they can. The text should add, not subtract, from what is going on. If the mood, style, and action are relatively clear from the image, long, flowery descriptions will just be distracting.

Unlike what you look for, the author is far more effective if both the image and the text compliment each other and neither are superfluous.

>My personal criteria for quest stories: Show some originality, you're investing your time here, the settings and basic stories should reflect that.

I agree with you completely, 100% here. It seems to me that most of your real criticism is with stories you find uninteresting, unoriginal or bland. That is completely fair. The art and text should compliment the style of the story told, though, and sometimes that will mean simple artwork and childish descriptions for something that is meant to be lighthearted and silly (like the Giganox thing) or more atmospheric artwork with present-tense stream-of thought text (like Gnoll's new thing). I'm not even saying either of these quests are great, but neither has writing or art that detracts from the story they're trying to tell. When you strip things of their context and criticize parts of something that should be intended to be viewed as a whole, you just look like an ass.
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No. 31572 ID: 38b610

>>341363
>>341363
It's not that the quest is necessarily terrible because the art by itself doesn't convey well what its author is trying to say, but it doesn't really make it /good/, either.
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No. 31576 ID: 55c4cf

>>341371

I love you.




PS. I actually do believe there are only about a dozen quests on the board currently. There are a few more finished ones archived, but yes that is what I really believe.

There are some I believe will ascend into the mix, quite a few very promising things have started lately.

I will close with stating that the 'description' for what is 'ideal' for quest art and writing is vague and flat.

Be dynamic, be interesting/"Original", don't be flat.

???

People who don't know such basic and overly general principles aren't even trying.
>>
No. 31577 ID: 55c4cf

For clarity, only the I love you was at Bite.
>>
No. 31579 ID: 0d5620

>>341351
>and if the second person perspective is used
I don't understand what you're saying. This isn't even a complete sentence. How am I supposed to make any sense of your sentence fragment? "And if the second person perspective is used"? What? What are you talking about? What happens if the second person perspective is used? Why should I care?

This is ridiculous. Worst post ever made, and boring.

>>341364
I'm sorry, I can't read your words. There is a picture in the way.
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No. 31580 ID: 9c9de5

>>341379
>>341351

> ...and if the second person perspective is used extra care should be taken to not fall into the trap of flat narration.

While I don't agree with the content, this sentence is no fragment.
>>
No. 31581 ID: 0d5620

>>341380
I picked that part out as representative of words that detract from a post, and I stand by it. In that case he'd have been better off to skip the words entirely than post that text.
>>
No. 31583 ID: 10c20a

>>341380
see, he's making a joke. The same way the other guy just picked a picture from two panel sequence, left out the context and then proceeded to claim that when you ignore all context and any images linked to/ preceding it, that makes an image awful. The tweest, is that he's applying it to text, because it works both ways
>>
No. 31593 ID: 2563d4

>>341347
This post made skimming this retarded thread worthwhile.
>>
No. 31651 ID: f7aa74

i'm not quite sure what this thread is all about...

is it flaming people for bad visual flow and textual whimsyness?

or is this some sort of non-writer angst against all people?

i may be dumb to say this, but i don't rightly know what in the xom's magical cane your guys are talking about...
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No. 31653 ID: 2563d4

>>341451
SO. WHY. WOULD. YOU. POST. AT. ALL.
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No. 31655 ID: 1f2692

>>341453

i'm a writer who needed to say something, :P
>>
No. 31656 ID: 28e94e

>>341453
So he could find out what we were talking about and maybe contribute?
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