[Burichan] [Futaba] [Nice] [Pony]  -  [WT]  [Home] [Manage]

[Return] [Entire Thread] [Last 50 posts] [Last 100 posts]
Posting mode: Reply
Name (optional)
Email (optional, will be displayed)
Subject    (optional, usually best left blank)
File []
Embed (advanced)   Help
Password  (for deleting posts, automatically generated)
  • How to format text
  • Supported file types are: GIF, JPG, MP3, PNG, SWF
  • Maximum file size allowed is 10000 KB.
  • Images greater than 250x250 pixels will be thumbnailed.

File 124415153514.png - (14.98KB , 362x378 , DF_Demon.png )
20 No. 20 ID: c92984

Expand all images
No. 22 ID: c92984

I believe we'd left off with Major Max's project to arm the Unified Setting, and discussion of elite warriors and casters of the various peoples.
No. 26 ID: ebf8f1

No. 27 ID: c92984
File 124415349813.jpg - (9.40KB , 297x333 , Fuckingpaint.jpg )

The essence of evil boils from the shards of this cursed artifact, making odd servitors that attempt to recreate it. Pic related.

Apologies for paint lack of skills.
No. 28 ID: c92984

Gorgossa can have the largest human mage's college.
Have it be privately funded (IE, the various families pay the way for people with magical talent so as to control them later)and very backstabby.
No. 30 ID: c92984
File 124415893661.jpg - (27.71KB , 219x200 , Fang.jpg )

And the subject of example characters.

I have an idea.
To avoid the usual, shall we make the example characters somewhat 'grey'?
Not only will they give examples of play and characterisation, but they will also offer plot hooks.

Unrelatedly, I'd like to slot this guy in somewhere.
No. 33 ID: 58ec8b

Could we have a narrative for each? They could explain the race's stereotype and then explain how they differ from that stereotype.
No. 35 ID: 87583b

The Human is a mercenary for hire, cold and cynical about the state of the world but the party he's with is growing on him, especially the cutebold, who he's starting to treat as some sort of niece.

The cutebold is a cowardly little rogue, scared out of his mind, but longs for a steady lifestyle. Unfortunately, lockpicking and theivery the only things he knows from an uncaring life on the streets. He frets endlessly on what will happen to him if something happens to the rest of the party, and sometimes simply freezes or runs and hides during combat, even though he wants to keep and protect his companions more than anything. His will is simply too weak, and it's a source of constant guilt for him.

The sergal ranger/fighter is a standard loyal citizen of Silvorum, trying to get some worldly experience in while still believing the propoganda that his government puts out, and is quite adamant of his beliefs. Generally an ok guy, and gets the job done, but if you insult the governor-general you're on his shitlist for a long while. Oh, and let's just hope you don't have to team up with any elves at some point. GOD those arguments take forever.

The dwarf is out only for beer, butts and boobs. Anything else is not worth his time. Or so he says.

The doobie cleric is actually something the party can't get rid of, like a hated version of Snarf. It constantly tries to interrupt stories and discussions with his preaching of doobies as the master race and how perfectly everything is done back home in doobieland.

The dunmer sorceror is fleeing debtors back home and always trying to get rich quick with his share of the funds. He'd cheat a kid out of a valuable necklace in an instant, but he tends to never go further than that. Not necessarily evil, just greedy and irresponsible.

How's that sound, /tg/chon?
No. 51 ID: c92984

I do like.

Do we need ones for the rarer races too?
Or can we get away with general descriptors on those?
No. 55 ID: 3acfba

I'd like to advertise myself for a bit. I did some writefagging about a Drow prince (the name Wila wasn't established back then) meeting up with an adventuring party of a human, a sergal, a Burmecian (whatever they're called now) and a Corgyn. I'd like to suggest this for the example party. You can read the bit I've already written up on http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Long_Way_Home and see if it's useful.
No. 59 ID: 87583b

The drow fleeing the debts he had accumulated was definitely inspired by that.
No. 60 ID: c92984

Several parties competing towards the same goal, or on different continents to show contrast.

DUNGEONCRAWLAN in Lindwurm, with deathtraps and ancient magic.



No. 61 ID: 3acfba


That's a pretty ambitious goal. I'll take up The Long Way Home again, at least. I kinda lost interest in the whole US thing when it got trolled off the board a few months back.
No. 63 ID: c92984

It shows off all the classes and all the races.
Otherwise we'd need twelve people in a party.
No. 64 ID: c92984

Also thanks for writefaggan.
No. 65 ID: c92984

Step one: Make a character of every class and represent the races as fractions of their world presence, rounding up to one.
Step two: Put them in a room together.
Step three: Oh god they're killing each other I knew this was going to happen
No. 139 ID: 6ab394

My advice would be to put together some rudimentary games using the setting itself. Get a group together (I would certainly love to join if I knew how to use either system, but I could help edit writefaggotry or logs of things that will be posted.) and then play the game. Run it a few times, screw up a few times, have fun, and make it interesting. Keep the players guessing, and make them work for the EXP.

Just my two bits. Maybe I'll add my email in here in the next week or so if someone says they'll run a game.

They'd just have to deal with a complete newbie to pretty much everything.
No. 140 ID: 64734e

I will volunteer!
Player or moderately terrible DM.
I would prefer player.
No. 141 ID: 8e18cd

Since I'm an experienced DM I can volunteer. But I kind of forgot most of 3E stuff so I need to relearn it.
No. 144 ID: 87583b

Numnums you're already doing like three games, you can be a player for once.
No. 156 ID: 8e18cd


I'm experienced enough to run every one of them. Believe me.
No. 162 ID: 118734

It's a consideration thing.
No. 174 ID: 118734

That is to say, we do not wish to overburden anyone.

Unrelatedly, we should also think up the current political leaders and their goals.
No. 195 ID: 04603a

Solus, Vyntril, and Gorgossa would be better for that. Aurelia would be more like dealing with crazy religious nuts, or prophesy and kool-aid. That sort of shit.
No. 196 ID: 04603a

Does anyone have an issue with making the Great Fuckup (which needs a better name) be year zero?
No. 198 ID: e867fc

Not at all.
And although I like the semiserious tone so far, it needs a new name.
No. 243 ID: 04603a

I updated the history page to reflect this. I set Present Day to 1752, but that can easily be changed if anyone has a reason why it should.

As for renaming the Great Fuckup: Crash, maybe? The Caele crashed their cities then, and the Goblins could be said to have crashed their continent.
No. 336 ID: 04603a

The date's cool with me. I don't know about Crash though. Sounds kind of generic. And retarded. Unfortunately, I don't really have a better name.
No. 370 ID: 5c5408

I like 'The Great Fuckup'.
I mean, the setting is serious if you want it to be serious, and not serious if you want that.
Naming it something funny just allows flexibility in that department.
No. 428 ID: 04603a

Well, it is certainly an accurate name, but it is much less serious than everything else, in that the rest of the setting, zany though some parts may be, is backed up logically. The Great Fuckup, as a phrase, contains profanity and is both casual and unspecific. As such, historians would not endorse it. Considering the time-frame, historians are the only ones who really care what it's called any more.
No. 430 ID: 04603a

It's what defines the start of the Common Era, so it's got to be somewhat widely talked about. Also, you fail because you said 'zany'
No. 433 ID: 3acfba


What it's called varies for each race, and depends on what the races believe and know about the time.

To the Elves, it's the Shattering, the time when their race fractioned and separated. To the Goblins, it's the Great Calamity, the time when the punishment for their sins came to them. To the humans, it's Dawn Time, a time of myth and legend. To the Burmecians, it's the beginning of the Mourning Age, when the Court was destroyed and the race was left without their masters.
No. 437 ID: 04603a

>To the Elves, ... the time when their race fractioned and separated.
No, that's way earlier. To the elves, it's when the Caele crashed.
>To the Burmecians, it's the beginning of the Mourning Age, when the Court was destroyed and the race was left without their masters.
Nope, this was earlier too.

What did happen was that the goblin continent fell, causing massive flooding and presumably significant climate change, the flying elf cities, in large part because of this, fell down, and hit like a magical nuclear bomb. Except a nuke that's full of albino elves.
Because of the falling cities, flooding and climate change, a fuckton of people from all races died, and the Faestir's new city suddenly becomes coastal. The goblins were split, and began emigrating everywhere, and Bongo Bongo was born, causing the necrostorms.

That said you have good names. The Great Calamity could certainly be used, as could the Dawn Time. The Mourning age and Shattering are both good names for the things you're talking about.
No. 443 ID: c611c3

Speaking of which, we do need a rough table for how often necrostorms get summoned and with what severity.
Maybe 1% for each level of the spell, +1% for each recast within the past month or so, and +1% for each participant?

Basically, it needs to react to three factors: The power of the spells being cast, the amount of spells being cast, and the number of people involved.
No. 450 ID: 04603a

not if it's 4e. Then any real necromancy ALWAYS causes it, and necromancy that the players have access to NEVER does. There could be some sort of fluff barrier between the two, if necessary.

For 3.5, I'd say that Animate Dead and Create Undead ALWAYS do. For the rest, I guess a table could work.
No. 453 ID: 3a062a

Necrostorms are big.
I don't think a single 3rd level spell should bring down that much heat every time it's cast.
I mean, necrocults would need time to build up members, and wanton destruction kinda puts a damper on that.
No. 459 ID: 04603a

It's low-magic. 3rd level spells are pretty uncommon already, and necromancy ones are even more so.
No. 466 ID: 3a062a

A cult leader should be about fifth level.
And besides, I'd prefer not to put in massive havoc summoning possibility at 3rd level.
No. 467 ID: 3a062a

+1% for each spell of third level or higher cast in the area.
+1% for each meeting of each cult cell that involves ceremony.
+1% for each ongoing necromantic effect in the area.
+1% for every ten unintelligent undead.
+1% for each intelligent undead, with an additional +1% for each five HD it possesses.
+1% for each five hundred deaths in the area.
Roll once per month.
No. 468 ID: 04603a

by that, a necromantic cult with zombies is less dangerous than unprotected sex. Percentage numbers should be higher. Necromancy is risky and unsafe. More so than teleportation.
It occurs to me as well that spells of a certain level or higher should prompt a roll as well, in addition to the monthly roll. Seven seems a decent spell level to start at, though I haven't looked at anything involving individual spells.

Also, plain deaths shouldn't affect it. Bongo Bongo doesn't give a shit about death, it's undeath that messes with him.
No. 470 ID: 3a062a

Then double all the numbers.
I figured that the Dance of Ruin worked like this:

Like attracts like. Therefore, every necromantic spell cast draws a little from the Dance of Ruin, but it's usually an incredibly tiny movement. Only a great deal of power, a great number of spells happening at the same time, or precisely timed ones could break a chunk of it out of rotation.
I put the normal deaths thing there for another stimulus that could cause it, so it wasn't always necromancy.

And yes, change the last line to read "Roll once per month or whenever a necromancy spell of seventh level or higher is cast.

Also, it occurs to me...
The storms would be drawn out of the Sea of Ghosts, yes, but might not make it all the way to the site of casting, yes?

Then what's being cast in southern Solaris that draws all the storms to Furnshakt?
No. 477 ID: 04603a

I figured the dance of ruin worked like this:
Necromancy uses power which, since the Great Fuckup, has been intrinsically tied to Bongo Bongo. When Necromancy is used, Bongo Bongo can throw power through that to create a necrostorm. Or do other stuff, if the DM wants to build a campaign around it, but necrostorms are what Bongo Bongo likes to do.

As for deaths: it doesn't need another cause for gameplay, and it doesn't make sense in the fluff. It's better to keep it purely necromantic. Keep in mind that, while we, as the designers of the setting know how things work, not all people necessarily do. There's still plenty of possibilities from a role-playing POV.

And all storms don't come from the Sea of Ghosts. The ones that do are caused by the Goblin Lich Kings under the sea. They're doing all manner of necromantic faggotry. They mostly go to Furnshakt because that's where the winds take them. They can start wherever, though.

For the table how about:
+1% for each necromancy spell of 3rd - 5th level cast in the area.
+2% for each spell of 6th - 8th level cast in the area.
+3% for each spell of 9th level or higher cast in the area.
+3% for each meeting of each cult cell that involves ceremony.
+2% for each ongoing necromantic effect in the area.
+2% for every ten unintelligent undead.
+2% for each intelligent undead, with an additional +1% for each three HD it possesses.
"Roll once per month or whenever a necromancy spell of seventh level or higher is cast."
No. 478 ID: 3a062a

I imagined Bongo Bongo as being more unintelligent than malevolent, but that works too.
The reason I liked mine was to set up a possible thing with heavy amounts of divination and small amounts of necromancy to stir up storms much greater than would usually be caused.

As to the normal deaths thing...
I wanted there to be some consideration other than "Oh, necrostorms, start looking for pale people in black robes to stab and get it to stop".
How about this, then?
Large amounts of death in an area don't cause necrostorms, but they aggravate them by providing a lot of potential. Like a gas leak. It doesn't cause fire by itself, but even the smallest spark is going to throw things right up shit alley.
No. 485 ID: 04603a

I wouldn't say he's unintelligent the way a zombie is, but he's definitely not JUST AS PLANNED. And even zombies consciously use their abilities, when they have any. Keep in mind he's a god, and by far the most powerful one that's not a "true" god.

And lots of deaths aggravate the possibilities of necrostorms already, as they are attractive to necromancers, who like large amounts of corpses that aren't necessarily so well tended.
No. 486 ID: 3a062a

He's powerful, yeah, but he didn't need to be smart enough to do anything but play a specific beat endlessly.
Although if the cults keep attributing intelligence to him, it could start coming true...

And I mean like a single Speak With Dead in the middle of a giant battlefield causing a necrostorm that continues the battle.
Because it sounds awesome as an encounter.
No. 487 ID: 3a062a

So I'd like to rehash the stats on... Most of the races, actually.
It seems to be a touchy subject, but I think we can get something done.
First up is the Wila.
No. 520 ID: 04603a

To me it sounds... silly. Why would a speak to dead spark a massive necrostorm? Having battles effect it is counter intuitive. Undeath is as much a perversion of death as it is a perversion of life. It would make just as much sense to say that lots of life would increase the chances of a necrostorm.
No. 521 ID: 3a062a

You make a bridge.
If nothing else, it shows the way.
No. 526 ID: 04603a

Undead does not work like that.

What, in your perception, is wrong with the Wila's current stats, besides the need for level adjustment? How about if we just drop the Int and Dex bonuses, and leave them as-is?

... Actually, we could also add +2 Ride (Remorhazi).
No. 527 ID: 2065af

You call up a spirit from death.
There are several hundred other targets lying around, and necromancy is inexact and dangerous.

They live in horrible frozen lands no one else wants, and they have a constitution penalty.
They are as resistant to magic as dwarves, despite notably being uniquely resistant. I suggest SR 5+1/2 level or something, possibly with feats to add SR and other abilities leading into the Voidmage and Magic Eater prestige classes.
The charisma bonus should stay, I agree, and probably the Int, but we need somewhere for them to be bad...
No. 528 ID: 2065af

Gnolls, as per the SRD, would only work at level three or later.

Elves need ironing out for the Perfection ability.

We need to finalise some bloody stat bonuses and penalties on Doobies.
No. 540 ID: 2065af

Also, I can't seem to find the +1 LA stats for Sergals, and I think the 3.5 stats for the Corgyn are lacking.
No. 542 ID: 04603a

The sergal stats:
I think they're good as-is, but if we wanted to make non-LA, non-racial-hit-die, then we could switch them to having +2 Dex, -2 Int. (and lop off the racial hit die, of course.) Then it should work fine. Also dial the 40ft move back to 30, I don't know why the fuck someone thought Northern Sergals should have that.

Wila are actually probably just fine they way >>526
said, as long as the magic-munching prestige classes are drow-only. We can just add something about how immediately after the Shattering everybody was being trained in that stuff as kids, but in the centuries since the fall of the Draconians, it's become much less prevalent. Though as far as I know, those classes still need to be created.

As for Doobies: -2 to everything but Str and Con. It shows their flavor, but doesn't too heavily penalize them, just in case someone actually wants to play them.

The Gnolls, I think, work well as they are. They may require a higher level, but they're designed to. It fits with the fluff. But it shouldn't be too hard to just nix the racial hit dice.

Corgyns, on the other hand, need a very extensive reworking. It would appear that they were statted before their fluff was developed
My Suggestion:
+2 Wis, -2 Dex
20ft base land speed
+2 to Knowledge checks involving the Gentry
Low-Light Vision
Keen scent: +2 to spot or search checks involving smells. Corgyns may take scent as a feat when they have Wis 13 or higher.
Favoured class: Cleric.
No. 543 ID: 2065af

If they only have one racial HD, then it gets replaced when they take the first class level.
The speed bonus negates the need for horses, which they wouldn't ride anyway.
The problem is that for +1 LA, the sergals ge +2 STR and +2 DEX, while the gnolls would get +4 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT-2 CHA Natural Armor, and apparently scent.
Add a racial bonus to attacks with bows on the Corgyn and it's good.
Suggestions incoming.
No. 544 ID: 2065af

Gnolls: Knock off the con bonus, replace with Survival bonus. Possibly replace the int penalty with Illiteracy. Possibly keep the con bonus and drop the natural armor. Do Scent as a feat, and have something to make the usual method more attractive, like feats that grant more bonuses if you have the racial HD.
I'd have the Doobies reduce two stats of their choice by two; it allows them to have low stats, but doesn't penalise any particular concept.
Here's an idea: The SR for the Wila requires concious effort, a move action or something to bring it up, otherwise they just have the +2 on saves. The feats involved will reduce the time needed as well as improving it.
And the stats on the race kinda need to be done before race-specific prestige classes are made based on them.
No. 547 ID: 04603a

>If they only have one racial HD, then it gets replaced when they take the first class level.
My bad. We can keep that in then.
>The speed bonus negates the need for horses, which they wouldn't ride anyway.
Be that as it may, it doesn't make sense with the fluff. They may not ride horses, but they don't move fast without them. They're just constrained to fairly slow strategic maneuvering. PCs can ride horses if they want.
For the gnolls, we could use the srd stats for females, and use your weaker modifications for males.

For the Wila, you're getting too complicated. Keep it simple, no point in giving the 3.5 version 4e powers. There's nothing inherently wrong with saying "most of them don't bother with that these days".
No. 548 ID: 04603a

I don't really think the doobies should be that flexible. They aren't really widely varied enough to merit it. They live in one little swamp and are all pretty close to identical.
Also, they should definitely always take a Cha penalty.
No. 549 ID: 2065af

The speed boost was from the original statting threads, the reasoning being that they looked like runners.
I'm just trying to have there be a mechanical difference between a main focus for one race and a side ability of another.

But too many and it's not even worth it to get regeneration.
We could make them amphibious...
No. 575 ID: 04603a

>It's not worth it
I don't think you understand the point of Doobies, bro. If you're playing a Doobie, it should be because you want a challenge, not because you want to be the immortal warrior who can't be hurt and can destroy everything. You can be a pretty good melee combatant, but it's an RP race, not a minmaxing one. The same should be true of all our races, minmaxers will find a way by themselves.

I agree about the Wila, but we also don't want to make them too powerful. It does seem like we may have to do so to keep them true to fluff, though...
No. 576 ID: 04603a

>they looked like runners.

Someone doesn't understand gaits. A biped can't run worth shit with legs like that. Those are pouncing legs.
No. 578 ID: 4abe6f
File 124641263653.jpg - (29.29KB , 315x450 , ostrich.jpg )

>>A biped can't run worth shit with legs like that.
No. 579 ID: 4abe6f

I don't wish to reraise an unending discussion, but there's a difference between 'A challenge to use effectively' and 'crippled in exchange for a few shiny trinkets'.
-2 Cha, -2 Dex, Penalty on nondoobie interaction.

I don't think +2 on the saves and 5+level SR is too much, especially at low levels.
No. 587 ID: 04603a

Okay, a biped with an upright body posture can't run worth shit like that.

You don't think that that's vastly more powerful than what other races get? What would we knock off to make non-wila races seem like a viable choice?

For Doobies, eh, fine.
No. 588 ID: 4abe6f

I always thought they'd pull a raptor run, leaning forward and almost being quadrupedal.
Fine, knock off the +2 vs. magic.
Seriously, though, most Wila will end up having SR 6-9, which might occasionally stop low-level casters. And it's not like this is a secret measure. Anyone seriously going after the Wila is going to bring non-magic backup, and SR does not prevent knives in the back.

For that matter, elves (all varieties) and dwarves do get a lot.
Perhaps we should cut down on those next?
No. 589 ID: 00e62b
File 124648360491.jpg - (140.18KB , 1229x702 , phazure_sergalonthewarpathinksubmit.jpg )

Maybe there could be some heavy restrictions for running at max speed? Only possible in very light armor because any heavy weight would throw them of balance.
Most artist solved the problem by never drawing running Sergals.
<-- This is the only decent I can think of and it looks somewhat different to my idea of Sergals
No. 591 ID: 4abe6f

Well, medium and heavy armor are going to penalise movement anyway...
No. 592 ID: 04603a

Holy crap, you know who we're forgetting? The Toltecatl. They're still using the srd's Lizardfolk stats, which penalize int, thus directly contradicting a huge point in their fluff. How about:

+2 Int, -2 Cha
Dial racial hit dice down to one, to allow for over-writing
reduce natural armor to like... 2 or 3? I dunno
Favored class: Archivist? The fluff fits, and the Library of Rs should definitely be filled with them, but I don't see them as being all that common in daily life. Low magic, and whatnot.
and we can dump the level adjustment.

That's a southern sergal. They're designed to run fast. The northern ones don't have as big tails, and thus lack counterbalancing for that posture, and have heavier bodies, thus making counter-balancing more necessary. On an evolutionary level, they've sacrificed movement for what amounts to Constitution.
No. 593 ID: 04603a

It occurs to me that if we're making all the races more powerful, balance will restore itself. But humans will end up shafted, as I don't see us reworking them.
No. 594 ID: f74047
File 124649020469.jpg - (10.66KB , 400x284 , oscar_pistorius_nike.jpg )

Oscar disagrees.
No. 595 ID: 4abe6f

Use the Pathfinder humans.
+2 to one stat, one free skill, one class skill of choice, and bonus feat.

Check the mechanics page.
No. 596 ID: 4abe6f

Right, issue from the chat: Navies.
We know about the goblins and the Wila, but what about the others?
Doobies and toltecatl can be discounted off this list, due to a lack of either inclination or means.
The human kingdoms would probably have their own.
I don't see the kobolds as being very successful at sailing.
The Faestir probably have a fishing fleet and little else.
I don't see the sergals as having much of one, but they might dislike not having at least a token force there.
Dorfs probably have little to no like of water, and the corgyn either.
So the main players are the Goblins, the Wila, and the Humans, probably in that order.
No. 600 ID: 04603a

... fail. His legs are not at all similar to the legs in question. He runs pretty much like a normal human.

Oh. My bad. Don't know how I missed that. And I approve of the pathfinder humans.

My understanding is that the use of boats is as it was between the fall of the Phoenician empire and the Age of Sail: Basically just troop transports, as far as military goes. Most of everything happens on merchant ships. (Which, my understanding was, are mostly race-neutral, though major nations have merchants under their control.)
The Goblin Pirates would be the only real exception to this overall theme, which makes sense seeing as they're also the only ones with cannon.
No. 601 ID: 04603a

In what channel did this come up? US stuff never seems to come up when I'm on.
No. 602 ID: 04603a

of course, but still, if we're giving a Wisdom Bonus to Corgyn, it might be more expedient to give the Toltecatl an Int bonus. Also, it makes more sense.
No. 603 ID: 04603a

How about if we also give them a +2 Diplomacy, as US Humans tend to be all POLITICSLOL.
No. 604 ID: 4abe6f

#rubyquest, somebody mentioned Sergal Sailors and it spiraled out of control.

'In the naaavy...'


Well, there are the remorhazi trained to ram ships and then set them on fire, but yeah, that's about it.
I wouldn't object to seeing genre alteration once you get out on the sea, though.
Replace cannons with ballistae, replace guns with crossbows or bows, and replace 90% of naval actions with 'Boarding action'.

Admittedly, this is mostly because I want to see every race's take on privateers.
No. 615 ID: 04603a

Goblin fleets are already described. Every one else's are pretty much the same, though presumably the privateers of any given race are more highly composed of members of that race than the average privateer ship.

Except Privateers don't really exist in any large capacity. Only the Goblins have cannon. Piracy isn't really that common.
No. 616 ID: 4abe6f

And I'm suggesting that we don't necessarily require cannon to do Age of Sail hijinks.
No. 627 ID: 4abe6f

And the last comment was about seeing everyone in fluffy hats and vests, to be honest.
No. 639 ID: 04603a

How would that work?
No. 640 ID: e49ef9
File 124677511628.jpg - (22.87KB , 394x450 , GM129~Admiral-Sir-Horatio-Nelson-Posters.jpg )

Be slightly lax on accuracy and have them use ballistae and crossbows instead.
I mean, if we go accuracy all the way then we limit the ship technology to the early kind that can't get too far from shore (Due to lack of space for supplies, as I understand it), which is unacceptable. The world is fairly well explored, yes? Sea routes from the various nations are extant, meaning that someone must cross the larger seas.
And if we advance it to multilevel ships of moderate complexity, it seems a shame not to hand out proper outfits for that as well.
Pic related, and apologies for shitty paint unskills.
No. 641 ID: e49ef9

I should also mention that I'm only slightly serious about the pic.
No. 647 ID: 04603a

Yeah, we clearly do have ships of sufficient size. What we don't have is gunpowder. Different techs have clearly not proceeded at the same pace, relative to each other, as they have irl.

Ballista don't work, because they're huge. You can efficiently fit maybe two of them on your average schooner - and this is with AoS sizes - and even then, there destructive capabilities are limited. They take a long time to reload, and have a tendency to plug the hole they made.

Most sea battles with this tech situation are going to be about boarding. You get your ship alongsides, probably with the help of grappling hooks, throw out some planks, and storm the deck. Upon slaughtering all who would fight, you take the non-combatants prisoner, and hoist your own colors. Then you probably send the ship home with a skeleton crew to be repainted to remove any trace of the previous owners, thus avoiding a political situation.

If you're not going to take the ship, which is stupid because ships are expensive, the best solution is to throw alchemist's fire at it. If you can't take it but want the cargo, you'll have to storm the decks and then burn it. Leaving it afloat could cause a political situation.
No. 649 ID: e49ef9

I hesitate to throw this in, but there are some wizards and warcasters out there.
Would a fireball work instead?
How about lighting bolts?
Also tied ballistae, to get into combat sooner.
No. 653 ID: 04603a

Low magic, so they won't have many, but I do suppose a ship's caster would not be uncommon. Fireball and Lightning Bolt are level 3 spells, however, and as such require a fifth level wizard to let loose a single shot per day. there effects are equivalent to that of the alchemical fire, except that alchemical fire is easier to extinguish, and can be used by anyone.

Mages are not the best offensive tools on a ship. What casters are best for is control of weather and wind, and sustenance. In ship-to-ship combat the existence of magic is not a huge style-changer. That's economics for you.

In the cases where there's a high-level caster (Read: PC) on board, however, that can make a huge change. Not if they stick to evocation, though.
No. 654 ID: e49ef9

Well, gust of wind is only a 1st level spell, but Control Weather is up there in level 5.
About the only other uses I can see for ship's caster at those levels are Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Grease, and Animate Rope.
On the other hand: Flaming Sphere is only second level and it's arguably more useful than fireball, since it can light things on fire and gets multiple attempts to do so. Locate object and the various Image spells could be used for awesome setups, and Web could be used to tie an entire section of ship down.
No. 655 ID: e49ef9

Sorry, Gust of wind is level 2.
So a 1st level caster isn't good for much except Animate Rope, Comprehend Languages, and Obscuring Mist, but once you hit 3rd you have a wealth of offensive options.
No. 659 ID: 04603a

I had entirely forgotten about animate rope. That by itself is worth bringing a mage along. Gust of wind is actually of debatable usefulness, because since it "emanates from the caster's hands" it could be considered to have the same effect as a fan on board. Since it doesn't push back on the caster, I wouldn't support that decision, but some DMs might make it anyway.

Regardless, since magical fire is inferior to Alchemist's fire (as noted above) casters aren't really much more useful offensively than they would be in a comparable land battle.
No. 660 ID: e49ef9

Gust of Wind
Well, whether it works on the sail or not is a large problem, but I can see other uses. Pushing another ship off course, pushing people off of other ships, or capsizing small boats would all be useful nautical knacks.

Unseen Servant
It does the work of two crew members. Okay, so it can't heave like the others, but it can carry and fill buckets at the least, counteracting the fire danger.

Flaming Sphere
I don't see how this isn't incredibly useful. a few rounds of setting small, but important areas on fire? Granted, it won't have the coverage of alchemist's fire, but it will be much more precise.

Any number of single-target offensive spells
Scorching Ray can remove sentries, set things on fire, and only gets better with level. Magic Missile picks out a few targets and unfailingly strikes. Sleep and Hypnotism remove sentries, and Detect Thoughts gets you a readout of the numbers on the other ship and possibly their tactics. Summon Swarm ties shit up very effectively. Web does the same. Whispering Wing allows a fleet to keep in contact at greater than normal range. Grease, cast on specific items of the opposing ship's gear, can cause the sort of interesting problems that cause people to die.
No. 676 ID: 13034c

Those things are all useful, but they don't change how battles are fought, which was my point.
No. 1158 ID: 9a71e2

Still haven't ironed out the stats entirely.
Also, we have no cosmology other than the general deities.
All outsiders war on a single plain of cracked mud blasted by a blazing sun, moon, and stars?
Elemental planes?
Where does magic come from?
Where does it go?
Where does it come from, cotton-eyed... I'll stop.
And governments, too, in a more concrete manner than 'Theocracy' or 'Oligarchy'.
Who actually comes around to pick up taxes? How does Baetica hold elections, if indeed they do? Can the Governors-in-Exile in Barthelmia declare war, treaties, etc.?
No. 1162 ID: 2851e0

i love it when people repost this picture
No. 1190 ID: 13034c

I agree about the stats. Suggestions?

I don't see why it needs to be to complicated. How about as follows:
naw. Gods exist on the material plane. The Big 5 live in space or some shit. The animistic ones live with what their associated with. None of them take on corporeal forms very much.
Demons and devils have their own little shithole plane. Whether or not you go there when you die is irrelevant.
>All outsiders war on a single plain of cracked mud blasted by a blazing sun, moon, and stars?
>Elemental planes?
as per normal.

Also, the Gentry live in Arcadia, as per normal. C:tL describes it well, if you're unfamiliar with the concept. But these gentry can access the material world no problem. They just don't have material forms.

>Where does magic come from?
Divine comes from gods. Arcane, nobody knows.
>Where does it go?
into fireballs and shit.

>And governments, too, in a more concrete manner than 'Theocracy' or 'Oligarchy'.
>Who actually comes around to pick up taxes? How does Baetica hold elections, if indeed they do? Can the Governors-in-Exile in Barthelmia declare war, treaties, etc.?
Idunnolol. This could stand to be fleshed out a bit, but we don't really need a comprehensive history of all the different countries.
No. 1200 ID: 9a71e2

I just realised something...
Why is the Corgyn-Bre the weak point if it's not on the opposite side from the sea of ghosts?
I think it puts it somewhere in the Bay of Rain.
Wait, shit.
No. 1210 ID: 13034c

I don't think physical location is all that big of a deal really. The Gentry are bound more by deals than any physical constraints. Since Bongo Bongo is made out of them, it stands to reason that the same applies to him, to some extent.
No. 1445 ID: f74da7
File 124962649671.png - (445.26KB , 975x2007 , Fey_Corgi_3_5.png )

Did we finalize the Corgyn stats or just move on? (pic related. old 3.5 stats)
No. 1447 ID: e82257

1d4chan has the new ones, I would assume those are more canon.
No. 1501 ID: 98dab8

It has occurred to me that we have no information on the architecture of different peoples, besides the Toltecatl, Wila and Aurelians, and nothing on manners of dress besides the Wila. Ideas? For the Furnshakti, I'd say that they have longhouses scattered around the forest, and dress in furs, making them similar to Vikings or some groups of American Indians.
No. 1503 ID: 9a71e2

Goblins would osmose dress from their hosts.
Let's give the Gorgossans silk and pointy helmets and hats.
Sergals, from their diet, would have scads of leather around. Loose trousers and shirts?
I don't see the Toltecatl as wearing much, maybe a few hardy garments made from grasses that are a constant-wear-until-they-fall-off, maybe? And the archivists could get difficult to make immaculate white robes to emphasise the divide further.
I don't see the need to change things up for dorfs much, other than increasing the frequency of armor and little iron trinkets.
Should the Sidhe get the usual faggoty earthtone robes and shiny silver crap, or should we shake it up a bit? Something like a toga in unnatural colors to show mastery of the natural world? Maybe living leaf garments?
We've said that the Vaess have the best hats and raincoats in the known world, but does that imply wax somewhere? Or do they get resin from some tree or horrible giant desert insect? Either way, these are probably just overclothes and much lighter garments are worn beneath them.
No. 1509 ID: 9a71e2

Doobies wear fashionable robes of stunning beauty, which look to everyone else like funny-coloured rags ill-stitched together to fit over the doobie.
The Corgyn get lovely little white shirts and brown trousers, or maybe kilts. I also think that every freehold should have a cache of old bronze magic weapons and armor, even if it's only one suit.
The human nations need more fleshing out on this front, and it seems like the patterns of dress wouldn't be that different, due to proximity. Another thing that needs to happen is separate development of Solus and Aurelia, because they seem a little close. Maybe resistant nobles?
No. 1513 ID: 98dab8

>Goblins would osmose dress from their hosts.
>Let's give the Gorgossans silk and pointy helmets and hats.
>Sergals, from their diet, would have scads of leather around. Loose trousers and shirts?
Most would be wearing some sort of plate. Keep in mind that they herd Dullettes, making plate plentiful, and they're an extremely militarized group, meaning military dress is fashionable even for civilians.
>I don't see the Toltecatl as wearing much
Stop right there. Toltecatl now do not wear clothing.
>And the archivists could get difficult to make immaculate white robes to emphasize the divide further.
White robes with writing and notes all over them.
>I don't see the need to change things up for dorfs much, other than increasing the frequency of armor and little iron trinkets.
As long as they all have iron on, it should be good.
>Should the Sidhe ... Something like a toga in unnatural colors to show mastery of the natural world?
>We've said that the Vaess have the best hats and raincoats in the known world, but does that imply wax somewhere? Or do they get resin from some tree or horrible giant desert insect?
Bejwaere: now with BEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!
>Either way, these are probably just overclothes and much lighter garments are worn beneath them.
Perhaps they have silkworms? or spider silk?
>Doobies wear fashionable robes of stunning beauty, which look to everyone else like funny-coloured rags ill-stitched together to fit over the doobie.
They're normally depicted as naked. After all, why should they shroud their perfect beauty?
>The Corgyn get lovely little white shirts and brown trousers, or maybe kilts. I also think that every freehold should have a cache of old bronze magic weapons and armor, even if it's only one suit.
I like that, we'll go with it,
No. 1520 ID: 9a71e2

Here's an entirely separate question.
Sidhe have a slighter frame than humans, and the same applies to the Wila.
They're smaller and thinner, yes?
Then why do they take a Constitution penalty instead of a strength one? Or both?
This isn't confined to just the Unified Setting, but I figured I'd ask to see if anyone could think of an explanation.
No. 1521 ID: de913c

Please tell me there is still work being done on this.
No. 1526 ID: 9a71e2

Yeah, just jump in.

Suggested No LA gnoll stats:

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma
Illiteracy- Every class except for wizard. Double the buyout cost for barbarians. Most tribes will have an oral tradition of songlines and stories, but most don't have a written tongue.
-2 on Knowledge checks other than The Planes and Nature. Songs and stories can only go so far.
+2 Survival, +2 Hide (In wilderness environments only), +2 Knowledge: Nature
Darkvision 60 ft.
Gnolls add their constitution bonus to the number of days they can go without water and food.
Scent available as feat.
Favored Class: Ranger.
No. 1533 ID: 7eda8b

>Very positive statline
>other bonuses
>minor disads
Too good for LA0.
No. 1535 ID: 98dab8

US races are more powerful than standard races. We talked about that earlier in the thread. I really don't think that's a bad thing.
No. 1536 ID: 7eda8b

Wouldn't it be easier to just put the average starting PC at ECL2?
No. 1537 ID: 9a71e2

That's why it's up for review.
Have at it.
No. 1538 ID: 9a71e2

Compare the statline for dorfs.
No. 1539 ID: 9a71e2

We need to take some of the extraneous abilities off dorfs, or give them some drawbacks.
No. 1540 ID: 98dab8

>There is currently no text in this page, you can search for this page title in other pages or edit this page.
No. 1542 ID: 9a71e2

Then copy-paste it into the browser bar.
* +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
* Humanoid (Dwarf).
* Medium: As Medium creatures, hill dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Hill dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, hill dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
* Darkvision: Hill dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and hill dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
* Stonecunning: This ability grants a hill dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A hill dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a hill dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A hill dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
* Weapon Familiarity: Hill dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
* Stability: A hill dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
* +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
* +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
* Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass hill dwarf’s Fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
* Level Adjustment: +0.
No. 1543 ID: 9a71e2

Ten abilities which can be classified as entirely bonuses.
Three more that could be construed as bonuses (the stats, the movement clause, and the Dwarf subtype)
And no penalties.
I suggest removing the bonuses against goblinoids and giants, as there's really no reason for them to hate goblins and no giants in the setting as far as I've seen. Also probably alter the racial weapons.
No. 1547 ID: 98dab8

We can probably remove the weapon familiarity altogether. But I don't really like the idea of just making everything weaker. They need stats integral to dwarves in the US. The problem is, what is integral to US dorfs? I suppose we could give them some sort of bonus to build mechanisms and shit, but that's not really all that major. The dwarves' relationship with the fey could somehow be represented in their stats, theoretically, but I don't really see how. Unless we were to change that attack bonus to anti-fey, rather than anti-orc/goblinoid.
No. 1548 ID: 9a71e2

We could start anew and see what they have.
Completely ignore the old stats.
No. 1549 ID: 98dab8

Well, here's my brainstorm. No thought given to balance, at this point.
They're physically stout and pretty sturdy, so they should get +2 con. Physically strong, but not really exceptionally so. Plenty of manual dexterity, but adroitness of movement is somewhat lacking. They are quite intelligent, they often devise elaborate setups to slaughter their enemies, and their forts are full of complicated pipeworks of magma and water. So probably a +2 Int. Dorfs tend to be somewhat crazy, as well as gruff and often have difficulty relating to other races. -2 Cha would not be unwarranted. Now, Dorfs are not at all wise. I mean holy fuck. They build vast elaborate traps to annihilate their enemies when it would be easier and safer to just build an entrance corridor saturated with traps, and put marksdwarves behind fortifications. Their homes are spiderwebbed with channels of magma and water. One rupture or spill could kill the whole place. -99999 Wis.
ow then. What other stuff are dwarves good at? Well, let's see. Building floodgates and digging channels? I don't know how you'd represent that mechanically, and I don't really feel that you need to. What are dwarves oriented towards? Hiding out and fighting crazily violent and powerful animals. We want to keep them susceptable to sudden attacks by fey templated animals, so no defensive bonuses. We still ought to keep some mechanical bonus to indicate this conflict, though. Perhaps give them an attack bonus against fey critters. That seems counter-intuitive though. There's no special way to fight fey, besides using iron. Obviously, dwarves would be more familiar with iron weapons and armor. Perhaps we could give them some sort of racial proficiency? I don't know.

It occurs to me that dwarves use no light besides what comes from their forges, so darkvision is probably a good idea. That's all I can think of.
No. 1550 ID: 98dab8

So what that stream of consciousness works out to would be:

+2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha, -4 Wis
Something to do with using iron. Lesson armor check penalties by 1? idk.
No. 1551 ID: 9a71e2

Iron Mastery: Dorfs are masters of metal, and gain the following benefits.
-Dorfs reduce the armor check penalty of metal armors only by one point.
-Dorfs get a +2 on craft checks involving iron or other metals.
-Dorfs take a -1 penalty on will saves unless they are carrying at least one pound of iron. Steel doesn't count.
-Dorfs get a +2 bonus on sunder checks and damage rolls against metal objects, due to their phenomenal ability to sense the weaknesses in metal.

Also suggestions.

Iron Frenzy - Dorf
You fight with renewed vigor with iron weapons, or weapons you've crafted yourself.
>Craft: Weaponsmithing 4 ranks, Dorf
You get a +1 damage bonus with iron or cold iron weapons. (Note that iron is not steel, and has less hardness.)
You get a +1 bonus to attack rolls with weapons you have crafted yourself.
Increase the Hardness of any weapon you wield by 2.

Alhambra's Greed - Dorf
You are extraordinarily sensitive to metals, especially precious ones.
>Wisdom 13+, Dorf
You gain a variation of the Scent ability, except that it allows you to detect metals. Treat precious metals as stronger scents, and halve the ranges. You do not need open air to smell metals, and it takes a wisdom check to pinpoint creatures based on their metal.
Someone with this feat can be deprived of this sense by throwing gold dust in their face or by removing their beard.
No. 1552 ID: 98dab8

Those mostly look good to me. I'd only recommend small changes.

For Iron Mastery, the only things I see are small wording incongruities:
>iron or other metals.
iron or similar metals.
>unless they are carrying
unless they are wearing or carrying

For Iron frenzy:
>Increase the Hardness of any weapon you wield by 2.
Why? Is it supposed to be some sort of fundamental attunement to the weapon?

The last one is a bit more problematic. The whole "greed" angle doesn't really fit with the fluff we've got going. I mean, besides the nobles, dwarves are often pretty socialistic.

Perhaps something more "value-neutral", as such:

Scent of Iron - Dorf
You are extraordinarily sensitive to metals.
>Wisdom 13+, Dorf
You gain a variation of the Scent ability, except that it only allows you to detect metals, rather than creatures. Your knowledge of metal's locations is not actually based on scent, and as such you do not need open air to smell metals. In addition, wind does not effect the range at which this functions.
Creatures may be tracked as is normally allowed with scent if they have any significant amount of metal with them.
Someone with this feat can be deprived of this sense by throwing metal dust in their face or by removing their beard.

So yeah, the first two I like, the last is a great idea which could stand refinement. What do you think of my modifications?
No. 1554 ID: 9a71e2

The hardness is intuitive abuse of the unflawed places in the weapon- it also cancels out the sunder bonus dorfs would get.
It's figurative greed; I was planning on using it to refer to some ancient dorf or other.
Like "Alhambra the Miser was SO greedy, he could smell when other dorfs touched his gold."
No. 1556 ID: 9a71e2

I specified 'Carrying' so they'd be loaded down with trinkets and things, as opposed to slapping on a suit of armor and forgetting about it.
Also, some kind of tight quarters bonus?
I assume they're staying medium-sized, and this will give them a smaller feel.
No. 1562 ID: 9a71e2

Someone wanted more work done on sergal social structure, since the economy, diet, etc. was worked out in the old threads.

There's the Council of Generals, which makes the official decisions and chooses the Acting-Governor-General, who makes speeches, lives extravagantly, and little else. No one with brains wants the position; It's too exposed, dramatic, and has little real power. Another, more superstitious reason is that no one really wants to be sitting in Rain's chair if she gets back. It tends to attract a certain kind of corrupt dandy that survived their service more on luck and bribery than skill. The Council gives marching orders to the army (with input from the Expert's Corps), which sets policy, trade rates, foreign relations, etc. and enforces them with steel if needed.
There is a mandatory period of five-year service in late adolescence, (Too lazy to look up actual numbers). Those that excel are given the option to test into officer positions. Then a period of five years is granted for either officer training, other pursuits, or the ever-popular version of the gnollish walkabout.
No. 1563 ID: 9a71e2

Second but by no means inconsequential is the Experts Corps. Their base of power is the Academy, and they tend to be able to extract favors from the Council by threatening to deny essential services. Luminaries are sent to keep records for the main offices of the army and also to unofficially spy. Sages, as graduates are called, are assigned to specific officers for specific reasons; for example, a mission into hostile territory would include an expert on the local customs, and possibly more depending on the goals of the mission. Sages theoretically have the power to overrule their assigned officer, but rarely do so for unimportant reasons: the army is in charge of their supplies, after all, and the Sages are outsiders.
Sagery is a valued pastime, but not as respected as any echelon of the army, which creates friction.
The Academy consists of any Sages that are present on the premises at the time, all of which are summoned for important votes. Seniority is respected, but not absolute. Many political maneuverings happen in the halls of the academy daily, which occasions derision from most of the populace and military.
No. 1564 ID: 9a71e2

Then there is the majority of the populace, the workers. The most common professions are as follows: Herder, Butcher, Potter, Tanner, Weapon and Armorsmiths. Notably, there is little patience for the preparation of food; Sergals have fairly underdeveloped taste buds and the highest culinary achievement is salting or pickling meat. A kind of hobby among this class is the mosaic: Pottery is cheap, and grout nearly as much. Artists can gain a kind of anonymous fame doing this, since no one is allowed to interfere with a citizen creating a mosaic, no matter the contents. Whether or not the mosaic is immediately covered by another is something else entirely. This ancient practice was popular enough to even deflect Rain's attempts to regulate it. Nearly every citizen has had to go through Basic Training, ensuring a formidable militia should the need arise. Citizens are entitled to Low Justice, while Sages and officers are entitled to High Justice.
Merchants are also part of this class.
No. 1565 ID: 9a71e2

So to condense things, there are four basic paths to power.
1. Military - Either be talented enough to test into officer training or work your way up through the ranks. Politic your way through the Council of Generals, possibly end up as Acting-Governor-General.
2. Academic - Have sufficient monies to get through the Academy (Usually from being born into one of the unofficial merchant nobility). After becoming a Sage, survive sufficient missions to gain clout, then politic your way to the top.
3. Mercantile - Go into business, be successful. Avoid too much military attention and Academy politics. Laugh at the stipends the Sages and officers receive.
4. Mosaical - Use artistic talents to lead a mob. Threaten or bribe the authorities to keep them away from your works, while directing them towards your opponents.
Or, of course, you could die from any one of a million different mischances along the way.
No. 1566 ID: 9a71e2

None of this is in any way based on the original moonspeak, just throwing out ideas.
No. 1568 ID: 98dab8

Iron armor is less strong than proper steel. If someone would like to wear it, more power to them.
I understand the crunch reason for the hardness bonus; the fluff reason seems contrived.
The legend/greed thing seems acceptable to me, it's just more of a side option than something integral to the race, and that's what I was thinking of in terms of abilities. Sorry if I came off as overly critical.
4. hardly seems like a real path to power of any sort, but I like it as a rabble-rousing riot-thingy. Seems like a real solid adventure hook, at the very least, and it could be the foundation for whole campaigns.

Something else to consider is architecture. Presumably they have it? With all the pottery that goes down, brick or stucco would make sense. Early Egyptian construction techniques could fit well.
No. 1573 ID: 9a71e2
File 125045675662.jpg - (83.53KB , 363x500 , 1232325758324.jpg )

The armor thing is a good point.
I'm seeing a kind of dorfen competition for weaponsmiths, where they craft their own weapon and then attempt to destroy their opponent's.
No problem with criticism.
Whatever kind of architecture they have is covered in mosiacs.
I was thinking something like pic related, but really, anything works as long as it's fairly flat and doesn't mind being covered in tile.
No. 1574 ID: 9a71e2

A pot of evil?
One of those giant urns.
Full of concentrated corruption.
It can raise the dead horribly changed, or merely add tentacles to things.
Who made it?
Who broke it?
Who even wants the damn thing?
No. 1595 ID: 9a71e2

For that matter, we should probably restat goblins as well.
What to add a bonus to and what to penalise, though?
Add to wisdom in exchange for charisma?
No. 1606 ID: 98dab8

dump the ride bonus and give them some sailing related bonuses - use rope, for example. Other than that, I'd say stock goblins are just fine.
No. 1633 ID: 1b3493

We seem to have a critical mass of interested people without trollage?

Is it possible to fluff out the unclimbable mountain of human kingdoms? For RPG purposes they are pretty much done (This is the theocratic kingdom, this is the rebellious Renaissance kingdom, etc.) but I'm sure more can be done with them.
No. 1641 ID: 2ffa94

There's little bit of flavor that's not in there at the moment, but not much. It's definitely true that they could use some more work. On the other hand, they're approximately as fleshed out as the elf, dwarf, kobold, Toltecatl, doobie, gnoll, and goblin nations. Really, all the countries should get more fleshed out, and the fleshing-out should actually get added to the wiki.

Of note, however, is that Thrace and Moesia are currently almost identical, except for membership in the FKS. And that Moesia was was apparently contested in the Silvoran war. I may write something on that when I get time as well.
No. 1649 ID: 1b3493

Agreed. What we have is good enough, but could always use more detail. I guess my main concern is Baetica. They are the communist, hippie, breadbasket of Solaris. They also have the most militaristic and aggressive member of the Federated Kingdoms (Gorgossa) due south and occupy one of the most flat, fertile and valuable pieces of real estate on the planet.

Why haven't they been conquered? I read somewhere that communism works great on the family/village level and I extrapolate that Baeticans have kin-sense. Like the barbarians of Furnshakt they know who all their cousins are and in Baetica (like everywhere else) everyone is related to one degree or another, even if it is fifth-cousin, three times removed.

Still, despite the familial bonds that keep their Culturish civilization going and unite them against invaders, they need an edge.
No. 1654 ID: c2c6eb

In keeping with communistic themes, perhaps they can share magic. Like, Some Gorgossans show up on Joe the Farmer's front door. Joe goes and gets his Rod of the People.
Meanwhile, a mage at the channeling stone in some other village is down a spell he wouldn't have got there in time to use anyway.

I'm not sure how well it works with flavor considering that we're low-magic. It would be enough of an advantage, certainly, but don't know if that's a place we want to go flavor-wise. We may end up having too, just to justify their existence, though.

Possibly, if we wanted to explain it more, we could say that Baetica's a bit of a sorcerer's retreat, because people there are cool with sorcerers. So then there'd be a few high-level sorcerers in Baetica, (meaning high for the US, not for DnD) and a plethora of 1st levels taking shelter from the generally thaumaphobic populations of other nations.
No. 1655 ID: c2c6eb

Looking at the Wiki, I feel like they should almost each have their own page. Not because they have so much information that they deserve it, but because the info that they do have doesn't really fit in the current format. I'll see about doing that when I get time on a proper computer. In the meanwhile, let's pool cool ideas.
No. 1665 ID: 4902ae

I figured it was skaven-style infighting.
Individual warlords can't take the whole place on their own, and don't want to cooperate with each other and share.
Combine this with a very efficient militia (everyone in a position of military authority was good or lucky enough to survive to that point) and it comes out, in my estimation, to a nice prize too tasty to snatch up without interference.
This assumes an aristocracy in Gorgossa whose main form of entertainment is screwing each other over and dancing for their superiors, but I don't see a problem with that.
So basically, the Baeticans win because the stuff they have works.
The only non-Villiousan nation to come under the grip of Rain?
I think they don't like the empire there at all.
For that matter, I think someone gets to go through the unpleasant duty of figuring out what it was she did that was so bad.
* +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength, –2 Charisma.
* Humanoid (Goblinoid).
* Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 of those of Medium characters.
* A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks and Ride checks.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
* Favored Class: Rogue.
* Level Adjustment: +0.
Just placing for ease of discussion.
No. 1666 ID: 4902ae

And then I realised I could be massively unclear.
I see a kind of cold war on the border of Baetica and Gorgossa. The Baeticans have VERY good communications, lots and lots of mans, and the people their trading partners represent to call on. The Gorgossans have very a very nice military, very nice equipment, and leaders that would rather have dickslapping contests than get anything done. So every few years, a new noble gets sent to carve up a section of Baetica; he conquers a little way in before the MANSMANSMANS wave, and Solaris makes grumbling noises and does the equivalent of a unicode stare. The noble ends up loosing land bit by bit, and eventually heads home in disgrace.
Apart from eating would-be assassins, generally being a crazy bitch, and conquering a continent and change using bloody tactics, what did she do? Are we keeping the creepy-ass baby-eating thing? Torture? Playing heavy-bass rap music in the middle of the night in suburban neighborhoods?
I suggest adding a wisdom bonus, trading the darkvision for low-light, and switching Ride and Move Silently for Profession: Sailor and Swim.
Additionally: The Necroships come from before the Great Fuckup, right? What do the goblins onboard look like?
What did the goblins of yore look like?
Hell, what do the goblins from NOW look like?
No. 1680 ID: 1b3493

I don't see Moesia as conquered by Rain. Claimed certainly. She claimed the entire continent (except for the crap the toltecatl and doobies lived in) as the property of the Silvoran Empire. But she vanished before she got too far south as the gnolls and free southern sergals are still active in the badlands.

Of course that doesn't mean nothing happened. Moesia was told outright the beastmen were coming for them and they turned to their allies and brothers in the Federated Kingdoms. Who whistled and looked at their feet a lot and said it was a dammn shame but didn't do anything.

It would explain why Moesia is currently independent. After being left out to dry by the Federated Kingdoms there isn't a whole lot of friendship between the two.
No. 1691 ID: c8b995

>Baetica x Gorgossa
Problem with that is that Baetica has never been portrayed as much of a military power, whereas Gorgossa is matched only by Vyntril, or the entirety of the Federation.
I actually like the Sorcerer channeling idea, despite being relatively high magic.

As far as the Rain thing goes, she did burn down unsuspecting villages and slaughter everyone in them, civilians included, before they could even wake up. I'd say get rid of the baby-eating stuff.

I approve of the goblin modifications, though I don't see the point in giving them swimming, and anyone on a boat is going to need some use rope.
Modern Goblins look like standard goblins, the old ones heavily used illusions to look however they wanted. The Jareths looked like David Bowie.

Sounds good to me.
No. 1692 ID: 4902ae

Major encounters would bring in enough people with actual talent to cancel out the infighting.
This is just like a hobby.

Throw on a +1 on attack and damage rolls against undead, and maybe a +4 Knowledge(Religion) for identifying undead.
Knowledge (Religion) is a stupid skill for that, though.

I think the reason they didn't get that far was a lack of anything worthwhile to claim in the area.
I like the image of a small parade of sergals marching through streets lined with stone-faced people as the delegation makes their way to the capitol to deliver the ultimatum.
It was what, a hundred years ago?
Some sidhe or wila might remember it, or freakishly old humans.
This would have been in the last days of the First Empire, and only would have lasted a year or two...
No. 1698 ID: 299a35

>Standard goblins
Please give an example.
In graphic form, if needed.
No. 1701 ID: 4c4f28

The delegation was pretty much a raiding party, it should be noted, and was more of a test than anything.
If Moesia actually hit them, then the Empire could claim it as an act of war and bring in the hammer.
The ultimatum was designed to be as insulting and draconian as possible, to cause a violent backlash from the authorities.
Luckily, they managed to delay things and were just about to capitulate when the news of the disappearance finally arrived.
Out of the 25-man delegation, three soldiers made it out alive.
One would found the Academy in the wake of the confusion, one would become an esteemed member of the Council of Generals, and one would die of his injuries several weeks later.
No. 1709 ID: 789c25

Short, green, and ugly.

What you're saying is unclear to me. I could just be tired, though.

I like the goblin addition, especially as I notice that Goblin-boo grants a bonus to attack undead.

I still think that the infighting suspends disbelief too much when their military might is compared to that of other nations.

For Moesia... It was more like 80-90 years ago. Few people would remember it personally, but it could still color politics pretty thoroughly. I think your picture of what happened lines up pretty nicely with the politics that the Silvoran empire is already operating by.
No. 1711 ID: 43d730

The sergal delegation, carrying an ultimatum of pretty much humiliating surrender.
We already seen Rain manipulate based on pride...
No. 1712 ID: 43d730

The usual 'You hit me I get to kill you back'.
No. 1768 ID: 1b3493

Rod(or Staff) of the People is too good a phrase to ignore, but you are right. We want to keep this low-magic.

Let's work off the communist aspect of Baetica a little more. Most nations have a military class or profession with the rest being ordinary workers. During times of war the peasantry can be drafted, but most people have no skill at arms.

Baetica is different. Every citizen of Baetica must spend two years in service to the king. The work is the same ordinary labor everyone else does; planting, harvesting, road building, etcetera.

It provides a flexible and mobile workforce to better handle local labor shortages, crop bounties and infrastructure needs. It also channels adolescent wildness into constructive and supervised channels. Most Baeticans look back on it as a time of hard work, a little travel, a lot of partying and life-long friendships.

In addition to a labor reserve though, the Baetican service includes weapons training and drills. More for the purpose of keeping the teens occupied when there is no work to be done, but enough to give them weapon familiarity and the training to operate in groups.

Baetica has a huge pool of reserves that it can call on in the event of invasion. It rarely has to, but Gorgossa has learned not to underestimate their northern neighbors.
No. 1770 ID: 43d730

So the invasions get met with MANSMANSMANS while the Baeticans go KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE.
What makes Gorgossa such a military powerhouse?
No. 1774 ID: 1b3493

Thinking some more on this, we can fit this into the history. This is all pre-Federated Kingdoms stuff.

Blessed with fertile lands and temperate weather, Baetica has always been a wealthy kingdom. Their people grew up healthy and strong and their plentiful exports of food to the rest of Solaris brought them both allies and a high standard of living. Even the smallest village usually had enough coin to hire a wandering teacher during the winter and literacy, while not universal was widespread.

This made them a tempting target for Gorgossa. One faction of our Mongol-flavored humans decided to invade, thinking that the Baetican's easy life had made them soft and weak. Their initial victories seemed to confirm this, as the king and his nobles were easily defeated. That's when things started to go south.

Instead of surrendering to their new masters, the Baeticans got organized. The king's bureaucrats had been running the government for some time and saw no need to stop just because the king was dead. They formed a council of department heads and learned citizens that acted as regent for the young prince. Similar councils sprung up across the nation as the Baeticans decided that no, they preferred their old way of life to Gorgossan conquest.

Peasant militias sprung up all around the invaders, blocking their path to the capital. While not much on the attack, they slowed the Gorgossan's advance to a crawl. Hit and run attacks in their rear areas didn't help matters either. With their advance stalled and without the ability to force a decisive engagement politics on the home-front started to take their toll.

With their armies in Baetica, other Gorgossan factions began circling and testing the invader strongholds. Worse, the Baeticans had called for allies and found them. The most important was Vyntril, their long-time nemesis (and #1 power of Solaris at the time) who began mobilizing on their now vulnerable southern front. Troops and war material were also trickling in, boosting the Baetican defenses.

Having bitten off more than they could chew, Gorgossa withdrew. Vyntril's aid to Baetica cemented the alliance of the two kingdoms, but had increased the ire of Gorgossa. Tensions spinning out of this war fueled the latter conflict that lead to the Federated Kingdoms.

Baetica, by accident, found themselves run by a collection of soviets, with the nobility either dead or severely weakened. This seemed to be an eminently sensible way to run things to the laid back Baeticans and they decided to keep it. The king still holds ultimate authority, on paper. The royals understand the difference between theory and practice though and are to date content with being ceremonial heads of state.

Baetica's councils were an inspiration for Vyntril's latter revolutionaries, but that rebellion took a much different and darker path.
No. 1775 ID: 43d730

How long ago was this?
I don't see a reason to keep the king, even on paper.
Maybe the king and the next in line died, leaving someone who really actually wanted to keep the castle library and agreed with the plan.
Maybe the line died out, or maybe it spread.
With the last option, royal blood wouldn't be too big a deal...
No. 1781 ID: 1b3493

Re:Timeline. Checking with the wiki (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Unified_Setting_History), maybe 1532? 230 years ago. The timeline is still in flux (and IMHO should be condensed) but about a generation before the start of the big Solaris war. The WW I before WW II.

Re: The rest. If the Baeticans were a Space Marine chapter they would be Reasonable. Why go for absolute measures when sufficient ones will suffice?

No need to eliminate the king as long as he rubber stamps what his "advisers" suggest. He's got a good chin and killing him would open up a whole rhubarb about what to put on the stamps and money.

Keeping a ceremonial king makes Baetica edgy and weird but not radical. Vyntril or Aurelia fill that role, depending on which end of the political spectrum you come from. What with the democratic merchants v. autocratic theocrat dichotomy.

Besides, keeping the king adds an adventure hook. And Unified Setting is Velcro with adventure hooks. What if a new royal decides to assert their power? Who is pushing them to do it? Why? Can your PCs avert a constitutional crisis or are they egging it on?
No. 1792 ID: 43d730

I'm saying they didn't need to kill the king at all, the king just buggered off. Saw the people were doing a better job, actually liked the policies, just wanted to be left alone with the books, etc.
Still has a plot hook in people claiming to be of the royal blood and attempting to overthrow the current government.
Granted, Baetica seems quite nice, so it might be hard to get support for that, but that stops nothing, really.
No. 1853 ID: 43d730

Wait, the Gorgossans are mongol-y?
I thought we were using that inspiration on the sergals?
I've been thinking persian for them this whole time!
Lighter, more mobile horsemen to counter the Solusian knights.
Next you're going to tell me that some furnshakt tribes don't pay tithes of pus to spirits of plague so as to keep everyone else healthy, or that the doobies actually have some form of government.
No. 1854 ID: 789c25

>Wait, the Gorgossans are mongol-y?
>I've been thinking persian for them this whole time!
Yeah, me too. The Gorgossans actually are supposed to be Persian analogues more than anything else. I don't think that the Warlord organization inherently conflicts with that, though.
No. 1855 ID: 1b3493

Maybe it was more Persiany than Mongoly. All I remember was curved swords and silk tents with lots of banners.

They didn't kill the king. Oh no. The Gorgossans killed the king. Quite easily in fact, which burns the blood of all true patriots. But the young prince was protected by a council of concerned citizens acting as regent. Long after the war ended and the new king reached his majority, he was coronated. The council continued to serve and advise the new ruler who (knowing who had the actual power) affirmed all their decisions. A proud tradition that continues to the present day. Baeticans may have a bad reputation, but at least they aren't filthy republicanists like Vyntrilians.
No. 1949 ID: 43d730

Things that I think could use assimilating or declared to be 'put in on your own'.

Lycanthropy and therianthropy.
Advanced undead and Deathless.
Splatbook unique powered stuff; Binders, truenamers, shadowcasters, Weeaboo fightan majiks, etc.
Outsiders. (I believe the last consensus was that each group had a separate plane not really connected to anything else; this works for me.)
Resurrection magic. (What do people remember? Is it the province of a single deity or domain of deities? Obviously it's not widely available...)
Commonality of magic items.
Sample characters; just start posting them somewhere.
No metaplot, obviously, but some rumours would be nice. Like guesses as to where the Scaled Court is (dead, hiding, using the nations of today as puppets due to boredom) Who the real power behind the Federated Kingdoms is (Elves? Spirits masquerading as prophets in Aurelia? A Jareth that slipped out and is every king of Solus in succession?) And, of course, what happened to the Yellow-Eyed Demon.
Possible longer campaign arcs? 'Invasion from the Sea', 'World at War', 'Restore Opossokarthel', etc.
No. 1951 ID: 43d730

And all of this is fairly specific to 3.5.
Perhaps the fluffing should be finished first, that way individuals can split off and work it out for other systems?
No. 1952 ID: 43d730

Lycanthropy is fairly easy to explain as long as there are VERY basic gods.
The curse is actually a weak spirit parasitically supporting itself in the host's body. The varied behaviors are centered around gathering power, eventually leading to a monstrosity of spirit tied too closely to flesh.
No. 1971 ID: 2b8572

You're looking at this wrong. This is not a DnD specific setting. The US is not, nor does it strive to be, compatible with every little thing WotC has released ever. In fact, the only stuff we want to rely on crunch-wise is the srd.

sounds cool. Should be extremely rare, though. No tribes or races of lycanthropes, more like one somewhere in Furnshakt.

Outsiders ... sorta .. have their own planes. Stuff is physically connected; digging too deep can get you into hell, and the big 5 gods are actually up there among the stars. Other gods are either among the stars or on the earthly plane. However, despite these differences, plane-shifting mostly works as per normal, as does resurrection. Resurrected people remember nothing since their death.

Artifacts exist primarily in the ruins of the Draconian civilization, Though if a GM sees fit, there's no real reason governments can't get them too. Either way, they're the sort of thing a whole campaign can be based around.

The Scaled court is mostly dead, though some may simply be in hiding at the GM's discretion. The real power behind the FKS is Solus. It is a pretty straightforward nation, and is ruled by a king.

All those campaign arcs sound good, but I don't think we should add them, as people tend to not want to use other people's campaign ideas.
No. 1972 ID: 43d730

I realise that.
That post was specifically for the contingent working on the 3.5 adaptation, and as fodder for everyone else.
To answer cosmological questions and the like.

The rumours are there not to be answered. They're there to get the DM thinking on how the players will come across the answer.
Just as much fun can be had from the king of Solus being an insane and cunning fragment of Tiamat as the usual politics.
Or maybe the illith can extend psionic mind control through their scrying now and only the party knows.

Sorry if this wasn't clear.
No. 1973 ID: 43d730

You don't end up with a man/wolf.
You end up with a supernaturally tough predator that, while incapable of higher thought, has some innovative ideas and vague memories about things like speech and doors.
And yes, they aren't widespread.
It's some kind of horrible ritual to make one in the first place, and is generally done to a large, beefy servitor rather than the caster.
And then you still kill them before they get too strong and crazy.
No. 1999 ID: 43d730

"The Corgyn build all their meeting halls with ten foot ceilings because they turn into monsters at night."
"The goblins only hunt undead on the land; the ones on the sea are their allies, despite what you'd hear to the contrary. Why else haven't they blown themselves up with those cannons they have?"
"There aren't any predators worth talking about in the Tatola other than the sergals. The problem is that that was their old job, and now something new has taken it up. No one wants to talk about it, but you can hear howling in the night, and there aren't any wolves up there..."
"You've seen those Toltecatls around? They eat knowledge. It's true! What else would they need all those books and scrolls in an ass-end swamp for? When they eat it, though, it disappears forever, which is why no one knows what's in those buildings. My guess is an army."
"The day is coming when the living from the sea will come, and the only thing that will save us is the magic of the dead."
"I've got a friend says that a few forts of dorfs are working on something big. It's out on the Iron Coast somewhere, and is supposed to singlehandedly steal the sea power from the Wila, humans, and goblins all in one go. I wonder if it's supposed to do this by blowing them all up?"
"They say there's a moving sandstorm out in the deserts of Barthelmia somewhere with a castle in the middle. There's a giant crystal on top, and people say there's a giant in it with scales and claws. Too bad no one can find it a second time..."
"I heard a dorf being brought through engelhafen once. He was talking about a hungry drumming from deep in the earth that had to be appeased with miners. Thing is, though, right before the whole fort went to shit, he said there was a melody to go with the rhythm. A kind of ... piping?"
"I heard that there's a new order of paladins in Aurelia. They wear dull armor and are little better than assassins and thugs, killing dissenters without mercy. The Knights Sable, I think it was? They've managed to keep ahead of the Holy Orders, though, so they must be pretty good..."
No. 2007 ID: 43d730

What else needs work?
Human kingdoms, some system for lifewarping (Probably just a feat and ranks in Knowledge: Nature and Heal.), Human kingdoms again, and running a game in it to try things out.
No. 2050 ID: 789c25

Well, since Lifewarping is pretty much untouched, as far as I know, let's go with that.

How about just as a skill. Make a check on a creature while it's in its egg or womb. DC 10 allows minor cosmetic changes. DC 20 allows you to change a default stat by 1. DC 30 allows you to give it a special ability or feat. DC 25 + spell level allows you to give it a spell-like ability. Add Hit-dice to all these DCs.
Cannot be used untrained, only Sidhe or Toltecatl can start with it trained. Sidhe get a bonus to it.
No. 2051 ID: 43d730


No. 2056 ID: 789c25

Not really. It's nothing like the Lifewarping we have fluffed.
No. 2061 ID: d94138

Then some other feat and transmutation spells to make up the difference?
What we have on record, I believe, consists of either monsters or minor changes to things.
And I was thinking that merely because only the Toltecatl and Sidhe are the ones to practice it widely should not limit it to specific examples from other races.
No. 2081 ID: efa41b

The "Monsters" are made by small changes over multiple generations. And the reason I specified that only Sidhe and Toltecatl could start with it is because they're the only ones who normally have the knowledge, and it's a pretty closely guarded secret. Other races might be able to learn it if they were able to be taught through play, but it shouldn't normally be widely available.

I don't think it should be spell-based, but if you've got a feat idea, then by all means, post it.
No. 2082 ID: 1b3493

It has to be spell based. They are tampering with DNA. They don't even know how to spell that let alone know what it is. Nor do they have all the complicated alloys and molecular structures necessary to work at that level. Their primitive minds couldn't even begin to comprehend it.

Biological science-wise I think they sorta get evolution. They know the draconians created some races (some radicals think they created all of them) and with the existence of lifewarping they aren't that hung up about "this is not like that." Clearly the beastmen of Vilous look sort of alike as do the humanoids of the other continents. Some kind of branching seems logical since the gods don't do crap and the draconians weren't that hot when you get down to it.
No. 2086 ID: d94138

This doesn't technically need to be tied to DNA, but I support the other ideas.
The critters were presumably meant as servitors, and I don't see that it had any other applications.
Maybe make it a specialised craft skill?
I played in a campaign a while back that based the believability of illusions on a skill called Craft: Phantasmagoria.
On the other hand, I think diddling about with the building blocks of life should require a little bit of magic, at least.
I'd make it a feat that Sidhe and Toltecatl could pick up at first level, but everyone else would have to wait until third. The Sidhe bonus could be taken care of with the Perfection ability.
No. 2098 ID: efa41b

>It has to be spell based. They are tampering with DNA
So prior to the discovery of DNA, selective breeding was impossible, right?

That said, I agree with
Perhaps we could combine these ideas, and essentially make it like a magic item crafting feat. Use a specific Craft - Craft (creature) perhaps - and as a prerequisite for gaining the feat, the character must have actually gained the requisite knowledge, either from Rs or Vanawil.
No. 2105 ID: d94138

Tangent here.
We have several distinct origins for monstrous creatures to fight.
I suggest we give these distinct styles and examples.
Elvish lifewarping- The mounts for the Holy Orders, animate topiary, things in the Water Forest?, etc.
Draconic lifewarping- Faestir (for completeness), Giant shit no one else is claiming, Most of the examples on the bestiary on 1d4chan, etc.
Necromancy- Zombies, Jareths, Ghouls?, wights/vampires/mummies/wraiths/etc.?
Fae weirdshit- YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE, Corgyn (completeness, probably not lifewarping), Hobs?, ???.
'natural' creatures- Water forest stuff?, various weird shit no one is claiming, very low-magic stuff.
Illithiad- Ships and weapongrafts, Armorgrafts, Symbiotes, Cleanser Drones, etc. (Better than the elves? Better than the Draconians?!)
Divine- Minor spirits acting up, the possessed, gods-cursed individuals, things, or places, emissaries of rank two or three gods, clerics, and the insane that have invisible friends.

I don't think the Toltecatl have made anything particularly threatening (maybe little shoulder-familiar things that are mostly eye and remember library layouts) so I don't have them on the list, nor do I have the base races because those, I think, fall into a different category.
Have at it.
No. 2106 ID: efa41b

For Fae - what are you referring to as "Hobs"
Also, by the Fae, more powerful animals. Also, most of the things in Heloraen Vosilea (the water forest) are of Draconic Origin, being made by Naga, one of the members of the Scaled Court of Nine.
No. 2108 ID: d94138

I figured they had other servitors that weren't as cute. Hobs are less independent creatures and more faceless servitors that are mere extensions of the fey themselves.
>water forest
I was leaving it open for escaped experiments.
No. 2110 ID: efa41b

We don't have any hobs designed. I also anticipate confusion regarding DnD Hobgoblins. But do you have any particular ideas for some?

And yeah, Heloraen Vosilea does have escaped experiments, but most of the things which endure for any length of time were made by Naga. The elves aren't anywhere near her level of lifewarping ability.
No. 2113 ID: 43d730

Hobs would depend on the fey that made them.
A hunter might ride out every full moon and kill anyone out and about that runs or hides from him, and his hobs would be hounds in the same way he's a hunter; he's got the rough idea down, but the specifics are off. They might ignore little things like gravity, visibility, and barriers, and they'd only kinda look like dogs. Like if Escher designed a crossbreed between a greyhound, a doberman, and a mantis shrimp.
The point being, though, that they aren't really separate creatures. It's really only one fey and an entourage of, basically, powered up Invisible Servants that serve as eyes and ears for them.
Hobs are extensions of their masters, and nothing more.
No. 2115 ID: 43d730

A stunningly beautiful noble lady made of flame and her attendants of coals.
A pallid corpse moving sluglike on the ground and the hundred hands that rise from the earth and push it along.
A brightly colored peacock-like creature and the flying feathers with eyes that surround it in a rainbow veil.
A spherical river stone, and the pebbles that orbit it.
An archer with arms as long as he is tall, and the arrows in his quiver with snake heads.
A walking fourposter bed, and the endless sheets that fly after it to cover it.

It makes sense to me that most of the fey would have minor servitors that did distasteful things for them.
No. 2146 ID: 43d730

The Cauldron of Rebirth.
Except with a parasite made of pure evil in your brainstem.
Have fun with your zombie apocalypse, guys.
No. 2154 ID: 1b3493

Here's a quick question? How do the Faestir fit in?

I know they got chased out of Pipe Organ City and now dwell on the extreme eastern tip of Lindwurm, but that doesn't exactly plug them into the setting.

They are obviously few and therefore rare, but they must leave home. A small merchant fleet seems obligatory as they can't be self sufficient. Who do they trade with and what do they trade? Cool relations with the humans and dorfs seem obligatory due to geography. The goblins are also in sailing distance (but then the goblins sail everywhere so that's not really an issue). They are also close to the Corgyns, but I don't think they have ports or much in the way of outside trade.

Hawking draconian artifacts is logical, but seems very low class, bordering on blasphemous. Very fine hats and waterproof clothing seem more likely and would be in high demand on the rare occasions when the distant and enigmatic Faestir arrive in port.
No. 2155 ID: 1b3493

Oh, and the Faestir's stoic and doomed attitude undoubtedly torques off the elves (what doesn't?)

Faestir do the dark and mysterious thing much better than the elves. Plus their civilization is older and they have more secrets. While rarely interacting I see friction between the two races. Like two goths trying to outgloom each other with the Faestir being the runaway winner.
No. 2157 ID: 43d730

Honey, magic, real and false artifacts, but I mostly see them as being very isolationist.
Like a tokugawa japan stuck on an 1800s egypt.
If that makes any sense.
Certainly they wouldn't let kobolds in, no matter how cute.
No. 2159 ID: 43d730

Holy SHIT.
Okay, idea tiem:
>Faestir and kobolds are both of draconic origin.
>Draconian artifacts are at least partially war machines, or can be kitbashed to that effect.

With this, I propose PULP UNIFIED SETTING.
>Faestir draconic cultists that got over the racial divide and recruited piles and piles of kobolds.
>They have the magical excesses of an advanced civilisation, centered around making better soldiers.
>They have a partially military culture. Heck, they even have a warrior caste ideal to look up to!
>They now have a rapidly replenishing source of foot soldiers and test subjects.
>They have a recent enemy (it's a stretch on this one) Everyone else that's been poking around the ruins on the other side of the continent.

Can you say fantasy nazis?

Even better, we have a dumping ground for the unwanted of society, from which two-fisted CG-ish paladins may arise!

I'm not saying this should be canon, as it makes major changes to a lot of things.
But it is an interesting campaign starter.
"Race to restore the City of Water in the Desert before the ... " Shit, they need a name.
No. 2241 ID: 1b3493

The kobolds are already on Lindwurm. Heck, it's their homeland. Though they are also on the dorf continent of Everoc (because they are in the Dwarf Fortress game) and should presumably be in southern Vilous because it is so close.

Your idea could be genius or madness. Can't really tell.

Two-fisted CG paladins have been referenced before. The Men With No Name that are the heroes of the downtrodden of the human colonies on Lindwurm.
No. 2242 ID: 43d730

It's a decent antagonist organisation.
They have a idealistic, positive theoretical goal (Return the Draconians to power/life, usher in a golden age) and so many ways it can go wrong.
They can make up the slack for the gnolls (or manipulate the gnolls into fiercer attacks); nearly anything that happens on Lindwurm could be traced back and laid at their doorstep.
And there's the moral ambiguity of forcing the characters to slaughter their way through the hordes and hordes of innocent kobolds on their way to the leaders.
And they still need a name.
I was thinking the Emerald Claw when the idea arrived...
Returning Talon? Dragon's Maw? The Court-Loyal? Knights of the Nine?

Probably too much early Jojo.
No. 2246 ID: efa41b

I like those last two. Let's say Court-Loyal is what they call themselves as an organization. The Knights of the Nine can be the Vaess that fight amongst the kobolds and directly lead them in battle.
No. 2247 ID: 1b3493

It's a bit of a diversion, but we can fit it into the standard setting (instead of ALL-OUT FASCIST WORLD WAR!) if there is support.

Hidden factions within the Faestir, understandably bitter about their current situation, seeking to bring back the glory days. We already have draconian cultists on the religion page, why not amongst those who were the favored of Bahamut himself?

Faestir need some spicing up and motivation for wandering besides selling hats. The Court-Loyal (and those of the sane, unselfish majority who hunt such heresy) looking for signs of their ancient masters is a good one.
No. 2248 ID: 43d730

That's another interesting note.
Why would they suppress this movement, other than the racial dislike of kobolds?
I propose a group dedicated to sealing away, destroying, or at least limiting in use extant draconic artifacts. You could extend this to splinter groups that believe all magic is descended from draconic origins and thus forbidden and corruptive, or others that use the artifacts wildly to cover them up.

Basically, I see Opossokarthel as the largest stockpile of artifacts (they have the inclination, they have fragmentary records, they have the blood for it) of draconic origin in the world.
And that can be their hat.
Other than being depressed and british, I mean.

And the artifacts don't need to be hugely powerful; I'm sure the draconians had their useless little trinkets as well. Nearly anything can be weaponised, though.
No. 2249 ID: 43d730

A seashell with an iridescent inside that produces a hypnotic effect.
A piece of horn that shapes stone.
A flute made of bone that forces listeners to dance.
A shield made of golden 'leather' that reflects light more and more when exposed to sunlight.
A small stone statuette that emits a compulsion to possess it.
A crystal ball, three feet in diameter, that holds what appears to be a small scaled fetus inside. It emits a field that forces constant rainfall in the surrounding ten miles.
A rod, made of invincible golden metal, that unfailingly commands anything of draconic blood, but for some odd reason physically empowers Doobies.
A dagger made of scale that cuts flesh like butter, causes no bleeding, and can also seal wounds.
A withered scaled hand the size of a dinner plate that causes columns of fire to appear.

Note the lack of stats or approximate power levels; that is intentional and any of these could be the focus of a campaign.

Also: Grafts? Implanted magic items? Maybe fleshwarping tomes encoded into the physical makeup of kobolds and Faestir? Items that excite, strengthen, or cancel draconic blood?
No. 2250 ID: 43d730

>A rod, made of invincible golden metal, that unfailingly commands anything of draconic blood, but for some odd reason physically empowers Doobies.
Wasn't weird enough.
A rod made of an invincible golden material that may be used to issue orders to anything of draconic origin (whether or not it has the blood) but that drives Doobies into an insane rage on sight.
No. 2251 ID: 1b3493

Very interesting take on the idea.

Everybody knows about Year 0, the Year of the Great Goblin Fuckup (though despite the goblin claims, nobody gives any credence to the tales of ghetto-dwelling day laborers that their race was involved). What with the earthquakes and tidal waves and the Year of Winter it was sure to be recorded.

Only the Faestir and the Sidhe (who at that point were still painting caves with sticks dabbed in poo) have records about the Fall of the Draconians.

That's because the Fall was worse. Much, much worse.

These were immortal sorcerer kings who picked a fight with the Gentry (entities we don't even have the mathematics to describe) because they were BORED.

Then they went crazy and killed each other in a civil war of Highlanderish necromancy. Tiamat, a crippled, broken, insane survivor nearly genocided the entire Faestir race, for as far as they can tell, on a whim.

The draconians, and all they created, are far too dangerous for this world. As the favored of Bahamut it is clearly their Queen-shittingly British duty to protect the lesser races from that which they so foolishly seek.

While few in number, Faestir seekers scour the globe for signs of draconian artifacts or (Leviathin forbid!) a slumbering draconian that must be hidden. If the knowledge of the draconians destroyed that great race one shudders to think of what it would do to others. For the good of all the draconians and their legacy must stay buried.

I like it. It's plot hooky and gets the Faestir out and about instead of being all doomed and rained upon.
No. 2255 ID: 43d730

Where did the Sidhe come from, anyway?
Hell, the only ones with confirmed origins are the Faestir, Corgyn, and Kobolds.
What was everyone doing throughout most of history, and how do they think they got here?
I can see Solaris being barbaric for most of the time humans were around (conveniently forgotten except for furnshakt) but I assume the elves didn't pop into existence with superior attitudes and butthurt intact.
Doobies don't need a set origin, because they already have about five (escaped fey? Fallout from the Throne Wars or Court Wars? Evolved naturally from some kind of abhorrent fish/donkey/troll?) and no one really cares.

Tangent: Why are all the draconic ruins on Lindwurm? The draconians had the power to dick around with the building blocks of life. Why stick to one continent? Why are their creations all over the place anyway?
No. 2256 ID: efa41b

It depends on who we're thinking made it. The original version works well if it was made by the Gentry. Yours makes more sense if ti was made by the Draconians.

We haven't specified why the Draco-Fey war started, nor do we want to. Most people don't even know it happened, or that the Gentry even exist.

All-in-all, this is a good idea, and I support it full-heatedly.

Only thing is, how well known is this? And what about the kobold enslavement? A High-level PrC is probably a good idea for that.
But who knows what? Presumably the general populace is aware of this faction, and adventurers will often be members of it. But the domination of Kobolds - Using Tiamat's magic, that which destroyed the Faestir civilization at Opossokarthel - is doubtless less publicized.
No. 2257 ID: 43d730

The elves could have a genesis in nature spirits.
We do have some basics for sergals, not that they particularly care where they came from.
Gobbos... Hrm.
They have a natural talent for necromancy that goes unsused- Wait. Maybe the the reason they're so effective against undead is a residual bit of that? Noticing the weak areas and such?
Gnolls are another one for spirit interference, but apparently there was an actual concern for survival on their creation.
Dorfs are the big one. They're too busy with forgin' to be magical-ish... Maybe a legend of someone making them from bronze, beer, and beard?

Tangent: Magic. So far we MUST have the following for the history to work correctly:
Fleshwarping, both Draconic and otherwise. Alters physiognomy at the caster's whim.
Necromancy, both Goblin and otherwise. Now that the Storm of Ruin is up, it is a 'corrupt' magic and is risky to use.
Divine Magic, borrowing power from either a Great God or from a smaller god, or even many minor spirits. Usually involves taboos.
And technically, that's it. I'd like to see some basic offensive magic that's not divinely based, to give the Wila something to be immune to, but we could get by on just this if some of these get offensive aspects.
No. 2314 ID: efa41b

>Where did the Sidhe come from, anyway?
They split off from the Caele and Wila. Prior to that, they had a small society and got fucked with by Draconians. They split up with the Draconians made a mess, as they disagreed over how to deal with shit. The Caele ran away to their air cities, the Wila stopped using magic and developed disciplines to destroy magic. The Sidhe built cities in forests.
Prior to that, nobody knows or cares.

>The elves could have a genesis in nature spirits.
Why would you do that? It doesn't even make sense.

Generally, the races believe that they were created by a god. The Gnolls were created by the Moon, I don't recall any of the others.

Dorfs should have a deep creation myth though. Forged from Iron by the Earth is probably a good idea.

As far as magic: I say we keep basic DnD-ish magic, just as a low-magic setting. There hasn't been a mage past level 10 since the fall of the Draconians.

Fleshwarping I see as a more long-term thing - it happens over generations. Thus why only longer-lived creatures or creatures whose goals transcend generations ever use it. Necromancy should require long rituals, and be primarily focused on direct necromancy - ie, raising the dead. Divine magic shouldn't be "borrowing power" as it is so often portrayed, but rather, requesting that a god directly intervene.
No. 2315 ID: 43d730

'Elves' as in the progenitor race of Wila, Caele, and Sidhe. Sorry.
No. 2316 ID: 43d730

If they were forged from iron, then wouldn't they be more resistant to the Fey?
I propose a creation myth where they were made of a softer, more workaday metal, and have to add iron when the fey show up. Say, bronze or brass.
This was a loss-of-innocence thing. They had to be harder now, more cruel, for iron is a cruel metal.

Yes, I can see that. But that also limits creation options for the PCs. You can't just say "Okay, here are the blueprints for this acid-spitting bird/horse/stegosaur, I'll be back to pick it up in five hundred years."
Maybe have a less stable variant? You can make a stable critter that breeds true over a few hundred years, or you can make a monstrosity of flesh that is in danger of exploding if it flexes too hard in a few months.

>Vanilla Magic
The problem is that D&D magic is actually fairly bland. It does everything.
That is very useful, but I wish to tie it to the setting more with specifics. Important figures of magic, the larger colleges of magic, reactions, erroneous or correct theories about how it relates to everything else, etc.
Examples: A sect of Faestir dracocultists that believe magic brings them closer to the livingish gods they worship. An order of Solusian knights that saw the devastation magic could cause in the various wars of the past century, and stifle magical developments using politics, money, and even brute force. A divided subsect of magicians in the swamps of the Toltecatl that believe that the only allowable kind of magic is divination, and the other half which thinks the same of illusion.
No. 2317 ID: 43d730

On a related note:
Solusian Knightly Orders. They should be distinct from the Four Holy Orders, and I have a plan.
The Holy Orders are more militant priests- They get trained specially, take in applicants and turn most of them away, and have as part of their vows a pledge to hold nothing higher than their faith, the Creed, and their order.
Solusian orders, on the other hand, are more political organisations. There's no limit to the number you can belong to, there's about two hundred of the damn things, and they're generally looking to get their hooks into anyone that shows promise. They might be based around a credo, be a sort of honorary society for those that have won specific medals, be based around a credo, or be the equivalent of a Good Old Boys Club. They have most of the wealth in Solus that isn't the king's, and the one thing they will agree on is that they should stay with the current system of nobility. The other fun bit is that all of a knight's titles must be announced at formal events; for some of the more active members of the loose knighthood, this could take almost twenty minutes of just calling out titles.
Did I mention that they all have different ranking systems and individual titles? And a hugely complex web for figuring out which ones are announced first?
Heraldic Announcers are an entire subset of bards for this. (max out Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, attach self to a noble's retinue)
Trying to explain the interactions on the politics to anyone who didn't grow up with it is likely to send them cross-eyed.
No. 2319 ID: efa41b

It still doesn't make sense. Nature spirits are (minor) gods. How would a god become mortal? To put it mildly, it doesn't play well with existing fluff.

>Dorf origin

Honestly, I don't really think that PCs should get acid-spitting stegosaurs at anything resembling reasonable levels of power. With the feat-and-craft-check system we talked about before, adding acid spitting to an existing creature could be done in a single generation, though it would be difficult.

>Vanilla magic
While all your ideas sound cool, the problem is that they'd be a bitch to implement, both from a design viewpoint, and for the players. I don't feel that they really provide enough benefit to make adding them a good idea. It's a lot more gratifying to say that, for example a wizard can only automatically learn spells from his chosen school, and that other magic can (possibly) be learned from the organizations you described.

That's pretty much the plan, we just don't have much by way of fluff for the Solusians.
No. 2320 ID: 1b3493

The Faestir and the Corgyn know their origins. Everyone else is unsure, but has a creation myth, usually involving the Sun god (whom the dwarves call Wotan, the sun within and source of magma).

It doesn't really impact the setting, so I'd say they were created by the gods in the distant past. Though there are some naturalists who notice beastmen have four fingers as opposed to humanoid five (plus other details) and wonder if that means something.

The draconians got to be top dog because they invented civilization first and developed fastest. The goblins and elves weren't far behind, while the other races were in various stages of primitivism bringing up the rear.

I like a lot of the ideas for setting and magical details. Sounds like Solusians might be a bit humorless about status and insults to same. That's going to lead to dueling and some complicated code for how it is handled.
No. 2321 ID: 43d730

Well, I'm seeing minor projects here. You can make a Homunculus at fifth level, right? Why not a homunculus that breathes fire and has iron skin (with appropriate research and money). It doesn't need to be stable, so you don't need to iron out the flaws that usually crop up.
The magic doesn't change, just the preferred spells.
The Blood of the Dragon would put a high premium on Alter Self and whatever moronic minor sorc spells were in Dragon Magic; the Broken Fire Order would take the Mage Hunter feats, etc.
Really, I just want some examples in place: Magic might be rare, but it would tend to converge into organisations by itself.
Like raving sports fans. Only with the sports teams replaced by two hundred different interconnected confusingly named groups of people that knock each other off horses causing occasional brain damage. Of course, everyone bows to the king, who approves of these shenanigans because it keeps the nobles out on horses all the time and not pestering him, so he can actually run the country. There's an efficient information system and bureaucracy that the king quietly runs, while the knights jockey for favor and make asses of themselves.
They have nominal control of small plots of land, with serfs (there are laws, it's not too bad- barring corruptable judges and surveyors) but are generally too busy hanging around court or off at the tourneys to do anything (the seneschals are chosen and trained by the central government, so the king can keep an eye on things.)
Basically, there are three levels:
The nobility; the knights, who are nominally in charge of the military (each order fields a separate battalion, and POLITICS ENSUE when a multi-order knight must go to war) and the Royals, who oversee the spy network, bureaucracy and generally excercise monarchical power. Positions are hereditary, with line of descent changing based on region.
The Bureaucracy, who handle the day-to-day things; Taxes, spying, public order, arranging and judging tournaments, etc. Has at least three separate branches who aren't told what's going on and are tasked with preventing corruption in the ranks. Positions are by apprenticeship.
The peasantry. About half serfs, who are either in the areas away from the capitol and major roads, or prisoners of war, or both. Serfs are sold with the land, and have specific laws protecting them in vague terms. The peasantry is highly patriotic and turn out in droves for any public event. There is a fair amount of abuse of power from above, and there are the occasional attempts to stage Vyntril and Baetica-style revolutions, but the double net of Knights Who Don't Like That Sort Of Thing and the official intelligence services tend to catch them. All in all, a pretty nice place to live. On the other hand, not following the Game of Knights is like not having a head.
No. 2322 ID: 70a2af

Keep in mind that someone at level may well be among the most powerful casters in their nation.

If I understand what you're saying, then I approve. Not sure if I do, though.

Sounds good. It might also be cool to fluff up some specifics.
No. 2323 ID: 43d730

Yes, I know. I just wanted fleshwarping to be more interesting than "I CONTROL THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF LIFE by breeding horses for a living so they drink less water" and more "I CONTROL THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF LIFE and an example is chewing your leg off right now."
Just that magic users will tend to have gone through schools. Include some example schools for the various areas, then encourage characters to make their own as backstory.
For the Orders? I'm counting partially on player ingenuity and partially on the inherent plot-hook-ness. "I've sworn to defeat everyone of X order that you happen to belong to because of what they said about our sharon- I mean how they insulted Y for Z reason and anyway DRAW YOUR BLADE, KNAVE." The support and free crap is an additional benefit. Tangent: The orders usually have safehouses that are technically inns in major Solusian cities, and each one has a safehouse in the capitol. These establishments have secure meeting rooms, a cache of arms and equipment, and will give preference to anyone from the order; this is in exchange for generous donations from the order, who generally have money to burn.
>Semirelated to the Magic and Solus ones
Gorgossa has, in contrast to the freeishly open Orders of knighthood in Solus, Tightly-bound noble houses. Children are doled out into roles depending on family tendencies, weak areas, aptitude, and in rare occasions choice. The usual pattern is Officer Position, one of various Colleges, then the priesthood. All the land is owned by the... (Bugger, I don't feel like looking up the relative rankings of Emirs and Sultans and Persian rankings so fill this in later), who doles it out every couple of years based on who's been doing the best job. In an amusing reversal of the situation in Solus (can you tell I like them playing off each other?) the High Leader has more official control over the various areas of the country, while in practice the nobles care less and less the farther from the central government they are, while in Solus the knights that control the various areas are generally assumed to have more control over the areas but have less from the balances of the Seneschals.
Also, they have really good steel, but usually make scimitars. This irritates the Knights in Solus immensely.
No. 2324 ID: 1b3493

>>The nobility; the knights, who are nominally in charge of the military (each order fields a separate battalion, and POLITICS ENSUE when a multi-order knight must go to war)...

Solus can't be too chaotic as they are the current reigning ass-kickers on the continent. Maybe the "Game of Knights" not only hones their combat skills to an absurd degree, it also creates a working chain of command.

If you are defeated by X, then it is understood he and his order are superior to you. Knights take that seriously and when the call goes out they pay their dues. It's very complicated and some duels are proxy fights between groups instead of being personal, but everyone knows their place and it fits together surprisingly well.

They need a better name for it too, maybe just chivalry? Game of Knights (which foreigners and maybe peasants call it) implies it is a game when it is more like a way of life.
No. 2325 ID: 43d730

I was thinking the king tells them the general idea of what he wants done, and the elders of the Orders bitch and wave their chivalripeens at each other until something happens to scare them straight, at which point they become a commendable fighting force.
Massive internal politics works too, though.

Random extra example: List of titles of a single knight.
"Full Dragon Warrior of Burning Blades of the Esoteric Order of Scales, Honorary Knight of the Chalice Novice rank for services rendered in the Battle of Brigiton, General Sword of the Order of Agarthes the Strong, Lesser Knight of the House of the Key of Salaman."
Full Dragon Warrior is first because it's the highest rank he's attained. Honorary is a very minor consideration, not usually worth more than a few drinks from a member, but the Order of the Chalice is an important one, so it's next. The Agarthes order is a middling rank and quite small, but he's got fond memories of it so he moved it up in the queue. The last one is a low rank in an order only slightly larger than the one before.
Now, do this with someone who has twenty different titles automatically and understanding the ramifications and you'll know how to WATCH the Game of Knights.
No. 2326 ID: 1b3493

A qualifier on the rankings. It isn't all or nothing. A defeat changes the relative rankings of the orders. Strong ones are given a more prominent place in the king's army, as well as attracting more powerful and wealthy members.

Smaller orders however can work their way up via cunning, so strategic thinking is valued and not just skill at arms. Most Solusian nobility don't think in those terms though. They just try to do impressive things in hopes that one of the better orders will offer them membership.
No. 2327 ID: 1b3493

I like it.

You've got a ton of guys running around hitting each other, but channeled so they don't bother the peasants or destroy the economy. They are all splintered and cross-infiltrated so little chance of a rival to the king emerging. Plus a chance to earn some serious reputation in foreign climes instead of wasting your time in small-time bouts can lure knights onto the path of adventure.

Or a chance to earn a noble title? They only come from the king and he doesn't give them out easy, but great service in war or in "unspecified services to Solus and the Federated Kingdoms" might get your kids a piece of their own land and a title to be proud of.
No. 2343 ID: 43d730

So we have a decent start on Solus, just needs some example Orders, sections of the government, and maybe a few of the main power figures (Like who the current king is.)
I think Gorgossa next.
They're a successful military power, have a persian inspiration, and nobody likes them. Hmm.
Maybe a Zoroastrian-style heterodoxy, where the God of the Sun is balanced by an equal force of darkness? It fits the basics of the Aurelian Creed, but still manages to irritate everyone.
I'd prefer to give them a reason to be hated, other than "They're opportunistic assholes."
A player should be able to fit one in a party with mere grumbling; What stereotypes or quirks can we throw on?
No. 2344 ID: efa41b

>It fits the basics of the Aurelian Creed,
The Aurelian Creed states that the five main gods - the Sun and Darkness included - are aspects of the same god. So no.
No. 2345 ID: 43d730

The Chalice Knights are sort of an unofficial honor guard for the Royals. Their vows include dying before their charge does (or suiciding if they fail), but that only applies when they are actively guarding. The rest of the time, they tend to parrot the stance of the royals on anything. It is a highly prestigious order, even though one of the entry requirements is filling a chalice with the entrant's own blood and remaining standing. (It's a big chalice; the original is only used for those of particularly noble families.)
The House of the Falcon is a small order, just getting started by the efforts of a small group of knights who were formerly banished to Barthelmia due to accusations of corruption. However, the founder (Red Knight Sir Challiwyck) discovered an incredible find in the ruins and brought it back to clear his own name. The artifact is a band of a golden metal with a staring falcon sculpted onto the front. Anyone wearing it that lies, or anyone whom the falcon or wearer is focusing on, experiences a pain not unlike having spikes jabbed through the tongue. Sir Challiwyck has used this to root out the conspirators that framed him, then went about on a personal crusade against corruption until the king gave him an Order to take care of to keep him busy.
The Northern Guard is one of the first orders to have been created, way back when Solus was a collection of warring tribes. Nowadays, it's surviving only on past glories; they haven't taken anyone in in over twenty years, and the current members are all over fifty. Most are senile, others have too many health problems to actually do anything, but one refuses to pass into obscurity. Sir Sergei 'Iron Wolf' Avanokov lived as a wage-slave in Zirnitraog in his youth, and has only been climbing since then. Having long since given up on the Guard as an effective means of defense from Gorgossa, he's been futilely attempting to start a successor group that has new blood in it. So far, his blunt manner and frankly ugly countenance have won him no favors at court, and his store of respect is rapidly running out.
No. 2346 ID: 43d730

As in there's that god, but also one of non-existence, or evil, or something.
Mostly, I wanted to throw in Zoroastrianism somewhere.
No. 2347 ID: 43d730

>Anyone wearing it that lies, or anyone whom the falcon or wearer is focusing on, experiences a pain not unlike having spikes jabbed through the tongue.
Should be
>Anyone wearing it that lies, or anyone whom the falcon or wearer is focusing on that lies, experiences a pain not unlike having spikes jabbed through the tongue.
No. 2348 ID: 1b3493

You can have Zoroastrian flavor without major alterations in the faith. In fact, the closer the Gorgossan and Aurelian creeds are, the bigger the hatred they will have of each other. Look at the animosity between Sunnis and Shiites or Protestants and Catholics.

I'm thinking the subtler and smaller the difference, the more entertaining it would be. We don't want to make the Gorgossans ambitious imperialists AND devil worshippers. It's too much and robs the setting of moral ambiguity.

Disputes in the line of succession from a prophet are popular schism causes in real life. Doctrinal differences ranging from the subtle to profound (Arianism, Manicheanism and other Christian heresies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies) are also a choice.

Two other possibilities, one is an issue of morality. Gay marriage in the modern day is splitting churches, but that implies the church can be split. Does the Aurelian faith have a supreme leader or is it a congregational thing?

A final option is something that will make the Gorgossans different and exotic, but is utterly trivial. They have six (or one?) candles on the altar instead of five. Or they have evening prayers at nautical twilight instead of civil twilight. Something with deep, complicated and bitter roots, but purely cosmetic in setting.
No. 2349 ID: 43d730

Right, that is a good point.
Let's do Aurelia next instead.
Who was Aurel, other than a middling-high level cleric and geezer?
Was he even a cleric? Maybe just some crazy guy with lots of charisma?
How did he get to the Revelation?
Does anyone actually know, or has dicking over the Holy Writ obscured things beyond saving?
What does everyone else think of this?
No. 2350 ID: 1b3493

Aurelite: "You don't even know how to set up a proper altar! There should be five candles!"
Gorgossan: "The sixth candle represents Aurel and the Light of His Revelation."
Aurelite: "You would deify the Prophet? Blasphemy!"
Gorgossan: "It's symbolic you idiot!"
Aurelite: "You're symbolic!!"
Baetican: "What are those two arguing about?"
Vyntrilan: "I dunno. Something about being gay."
No. 2351 ID: 1b3493

Aurelia's got a bit of fluff already. Golden roofed temples amidst greenery. The Four Orders keeping the peace, the king reduced to a figurehead and various religious rabble-rousers stirring up the pilgrims.

Aurel would have to be a cleric, if only to demonstrate that he still had the favor of the gods despite his radical interpretation. Massive charisma would also be required in order to get others to sign on.

Might be best to leave history and doctrine a bit fuzzy. Most players won't care and for those that do we want the option of competing schools they can use for cleric customization.

One thought though is that Solus and Aurelia are tight. The Solusians probably take the Revelation and see in it a guide to secular matters. There are different countries (gods), but they are all aspects of a greater humanity (one god). Solusians naturally see themselves in the nifty Sun god role.

One reason the Federated Kingdom idea took hold (besides twenty years of horrible war and famine) was the theory that human affairs could be improved by better reflecting the teachings of the Church.

That sounds more theocratic than I intended. More of "Hey, it works for the gods so why not?" instead of "It is as the gods command!"

No. 2352 ID: 43d730

Aurelia needed everyone using the right handbook for the Revelation, to keep everyone on the right path.
So they made a deal with Solus to combine RELIGIOUS BROWBEATING DIPLOMACY and KNIGHTSKNIGHTSKNIGHTS to form the Federated Kingdoms.
And so Solus and Aurelia formed the head.
Gorgossa probably encouraged the difference in ceremony to aggravate Solus.
No. 2353 ID: 9ce203

I support this as the difference.

That's pretty much exactly my thoughts. Only thing I'm not sure I agree with is that application of theology on a secular level. I do agree that it should happen, but that implementation seems too pervasive. I don't really know how to do it better, though, besides just throwing in some standard medieval cathedrals and monasteries.
No. 2356 ID: 43d730

Random thought:
Churches/temples/monasteries/shrines/etc. should be easy to work up for each race, and give more insight into the religion bits.
Maybe a few festivals, holidays, or rituals?
No. 2357 ID: 1b3493

>>Only thing I'm not sure I agree with is that application of theology on a secular level. I do agree that it should happen, but that implementation seems too pervasive. I don't really know how to do it better, though, besides just throwing in some standard medieval cathedrals and monasteries.

Yeah, it's a notion that feels usable but doesn't quite fit. Obviously we want religion to influence culture as a source for ideas. But everything has to take a backseat to giving the GM and players interesting stuff to play with.

>>I support this as the difference.
It's probably a mixture of stuff from >>3250. A schism centuries ago, disaffected priests heading north and centuries later a mildly different form of the faith. Six candles instead of five and no golden roofs ("Aurel used the immaculate firmament as a metaphor! It's not an excuse for whorish displays of wealth!") but otherwise about as different as Anglican and Methodist.

Which makes the Gorgossans no better than spirit-worshiping necromancers in the eyes of the ultra-devout, but most people couldn't tell you the difference between them.
No. 2358 ID: 43d730

Minor differences in the robes for the different denominations.
For the main Aurelians, green for novices, white for the usual clergy, and ... Nah, fully gold robes would be ridiculous. Maybe all three?
No. 2360 ID: efa41b

High priests wear SOLID GOLD MANTLES. Sort of like Egyptian/Mesopotamian collars, but not shaped like that, and covered in bas-relief of knights and stuff. Or even more ostentatious, fully sculpted landscapes, with fully sculpted armies going to war on one shoulder, and God on the other. Or something. Each one should be different.
No. 2363 ID: 43d730

I like this, except for the fact that the high priests are likely to be old and decrepit.
Does Aurelia have a pope-equivalent, or a council, or something else?
No. 2364 ID: 43d730

I have this mental image of an ancient priest, stooped with years and so holy he doesn't bother with things like blindness and being polite, being followed around by a pair of beefy lesser priests so they can hold up his gargantuan golden pectoral with dragons on it.
The helpers are being constantly harangued to do their jobs better.
No. 2365 ID: efa41b

Congratulations. You just created the first fluff on the High Priest of Aurel.
No. 2370 ID: 43d730

The History page is unclear about when the transfer of power happened in Aurelia.
How long ago did Aurel live? The Religion page only says 'Several Centuries'.

Semi-relatedly, Relics of Aurel and important prophets, symbols of the Aurelian Creed and other religions, and the origin of the Holy Orders need work.
No. 2374 ID: 43d730

They started as the Royal Guard, but that can't be all the story we put in.
How did 'Aurel's four closest followers' end up in charge of the guard? What legendary deeds did Asiurtes, Duren, Kenati, and Reli do?

Wait a minute...
The Sidhe gave them the mounts, yes? Still purposefully unclear as to whether that was a control measure. Wouldn't it be in the best interests of the Sidhe to expand the power of the people they had their hooks in already? How fast did the Creed spread?

Also, golden circle with a band of green, then white, then gold again. Or with a mandala in the center with a wheel of five colors: Gold, white, silver, black, and green.
No. 2376 ID: 1b3493

I dunno, the Sidhe are kind of pussy. I doubt they would interject themselves into a conflict where they didn't already know the winners.

More likely they presented the mounts when the Orders were already established and powerful. That way they still get their hooks in, but zero chance of blowback if their side loses.
No. 2377 ID: 43d730

Well, expand their power more.
I still want to know what those four did.
Some stories of Aurel?
Taming monsters?
Parting waters?
Cockslapping false gods into stopping whatever they were doing?
Providing Manna?
These don't need to be entirely accurate, just the kind of stories one would be told in the equivalent of Creed sunday school.

Actually, that's a good idea.
Followers of the main Aurelian religion can call themselves Creedsmen.
No. 2378 ID: 43d730

Sorry, that was in reference to the Aurelians.
It would make sense for them to strengthen them with a means that also controlled them.
No. 2379 ID: 43d730

And for some reason this was the first thing to come to mind.
No. 2380 ID: 1b3493

I figure Aurel was Jesus-level cool. This guy you would totally want to hang out with, who talked a lot of sense even if went against the status quo. Hence the dominance of monotheism outside of Furnshakt.

That was centuries ago, before the rise of fried stick-meat sold by goblin vendors as you know it. Then there were his disciples who had the five rings of Captain Planet (except for heart, because that one was lame) who did awesome stuff, that the PCs and GMs can riff off of.

Hidden treasures, undone quests, enigmatic dying words, sacred weapons in guarded temples more than worth stealing.

Oh man, suppressed gospels! The Testimonium of Durem, only rumored to exist, said to lay within the most sacred vault of Aurelia's temples.

Somebody (you aren't sure who, might not even be human) wants it. And they are willing to pay your price. Are you a bad enough dude to overturn centuries of dogma?
No. 2381 ID: 1b3493

I've been thinking about Gorgossa, thanks to the thread. Unfortunately I know jack-all about Persians. Aside from the fact that they are aggressive and militaristic because they are po-ass pepper-burger eaters I'm stuck on culture. Here is what I have so far. As always, thoughts, vetoes, tangents?


Gorgossa is a hilly and mountainous land, located on the eastern coast of Solaris and due south of Baetica. Because of the terrain and proximity to the Onras Ocean, they lack the pleasant climate and abundant cropland of their northern neighbors. Trade is also restricted as merchant shipping (mostly Vyntrillian) bypasses their roads entirely and leaves the interior isolated.

Despite their extensive coastline, Gorgossa is lacking in natural harbors, or forests of the right variety for ship building. Regardless, they have expended enormous treasure on the construction of a navy. While they have occupied or conquered a number of islands (that remain a source of dispute with Vyntril) their fleet is considered second-rate at best. Hopes of profit through trade are mostly unmet. Some blame this on the lack of goblins in Gorgossa, and the subsequent lack of interest from the merchant-navy of the Goblin Remnant.

It is a poor country by most measures, a fact that has influenced their culture and politics in many ways.

Gorgossa has one advantage over other nations. Their abundant mineral wealth, especially their remarkably rich and pure iron deposits. This makes Gorgossan steel the best on the continent, but the kingdom lacks the manpower and resources to fully exploit it.
No. 2382 ID: 43d730

Then why are they the other military power other than Solus?
They have steel they can't use, no trade, and no agriculture worth mentioning.
We can't use the 'They live in BFE, everyone is badass' because that would also apply to Furnshakt.
A strong central government is a must, and I'd like to have some nobles orbiting that as regional governors...
Hmm. Apparently 'Satrap' is persian.
Maybe only a small bit of Gorgossa is 'true' Gorgossa, and the rest is semi-independent city states? Conquering other city-states and easing up on the social restrictions was apparently a favored tactic back in the day.

Browsing Wiki, I found something interesting. The Achaemenid Empire apparently had a Truth fetish. Borrow that?
No. 2385 ID: 1b3493

Good point, it does overlap a bit with the furriners. I can re-edit to take out the doom. They aren't number one in any of their industries, but they do all right. They could be tops in steel (almost as good as dwarven, but much cheaper) but the government probably diverts most of it into military production.

A couple of reasons I was thinking poverty. Their mainline unit is light cavalry, while everyone else has more-expensive units like knights, MANSMANSMANS or freaking pegasii. They are also keen to conquer everything in sight, implying they need things their homeland doesn't provide.

Gorgossa also has a massive chip on their shoulder when it comes to everybody else. "Hey Aurelia, nice church. Guess what? Ours is just like yours only better! Nice swords Solus! Check this out, ours have better steel and ARE CURVED! I just blew your tiny little mind didn't I? Oh don't think I forgot you Vyntril. Think you are number one with your ships making money all over the place? FUCK YOU! I just took your islands you fat bastards! How do you like them apples!"

Poverty could explain it. They have little and could lose it all in a bad harvest or land reallocation by the king. They need to expand and are contemptuous of those who live in luxury and try to keep them down.

On the other hand, maybe they are just dicks.
No. 2386 ID: 1b3493

Gorgossa may still be opaque, but I like the way the other human kingdoms are coming together.

Aurelia has the Fantasy Jerusalem thing going on, with all the political craziness that entails. Plus it is packed with temples full of valuable loot. ("The roofs are gold man. Actual hammered gold! We distract the guard for an hour or two, cross the border into Furnshakt, lay low for a few months and then we live like kings!")

The monotheism/unified church bit also gives it a Vatican flair, so you can do all that Dan Brown/DaVinci Code stuff with conspiracies, secret societies and elite warrior-priests. The church is also a good patron for Indiana Jones style adventure, sending PCs out across the world to recover sacred artifacts that were 'misplaced' over the centuries.

The battling knightly orders of Solus also have a nice flavor. The government runs like a pro-wrestling storyline, with combat in the arena deciding power and matters of state (within limits, the king has final say).

"Ok, the next adventure is a diplomatic mission in Solus."
"Great. So we go to a bunch of parties and exchange cryptic comments with a bunch of NPCs so we can gain allies? That's boring."
"Not quite. You will go to parties and insult NPCs so you can fight them in a duel, beat the shit out of them and then gain allies."
"Really? Do we get to keep their stuff?"
No. 2387 ID: 43d730

>Maybe just dicks
A little of both.
I remember something a while back about having semicompetent schools of sorcery there, due to the nobles paying the way for people with talent in order to have them as retainers later.

Unrelatedly, I propose that they have very showy cities. They might not have much wealth, but they'll flaunt what they do have- Partially to imply that covering their roofs with mother-of-pearl is nothing to them, and partially because they ones that make it to the top will want to enjoy themselves.

Also unrelatedly: Their Warrior Ideal would then be of a lightly-armed skirmisher, living simply and economically. He has his horse, his bow, and his sword, and that's enough. A nice contrast with the heavily endowed knights of Solus, the religiously baggaged paladins of Aurelia, etc. The key is simplicity for the Gorgossans. It's probably a very nice horse, sword, and bow, but it's all they really need.
No. 2388 ID: 43d730

Oh hey, ransom.
In the medieval sense.
No. 2390 ID: 1b3493

>>Oh hey, ransom. In the medieval sense.

That totally fits. Not so much from a money sense in the arena, but in a political favor aspect.

The Game of Knights is complicated and multi-leveled. While most of the bouts are about youthful hormones and perceived insults to our Sharon, some of them are important. You can't tell which ones are which unless you follow the game, but some jousts determine which factions ally. It's like Kremlinology, but with swords.
No. 2401 ID: 43d730

If I remember correctly, you got to keep the armor and horse of those you beat, meaning a whole fuckton of money and effort.
Usually, they'd just buy it back unless the winner was a dick about it.
I'm basing all of this on having read Men of Iron years ago, so feel free to correct.

How do the Holy Orders fit into this? Do they get a bye on tourneys, or are they politely asked not to compete because of MAGIC and MONSTROUS MOUNT, or is it a common trap for novices to get them to stuck in the morass of the Game of Knights?
How common are the Holy Orders, anyway? There can't be enough trouble in Aurelia to require all of them to be there at all times...
Maybe a kind of mission-based thing, or patrolling the Federated Kingdoms? "There are rumors of a cult of necromancers in western Gorgossa, so we're sending three luminaries of the Order of Durel and some pages to clean it up. Here's your official not-going-to-antagonise-the-Gorgossan-Church-because-we-have-an-actual-job-here badge, some Aurelian Suns, (holy shit, currency, that's what needs done next) and it's around the village of Samsard. Have at it.
No. 2402 ID: c56026

The Holy Orders are not Solusian, and therefore do not interact with the Game of Knights at all.
They aren't actually subject to the direct command of the Aurelian government, so the scenario you put forth is unlikely to happen, but I like the idea of mission-based deployment. Perhaps on a larger scale. I'm thinking I like the idea of them being essentially glorified mercenaries. An order wipes out the results of the latest necrostorm, and the local government gives them a donation. The Furnshakti are getting unruly? Request that an order go deal with it, and give them a donation. Of course, suggesting that the Orders get paid for their Holy work would be just crass. They deal with problems in the Federated Kingdoms out of the goodness of their hearts. The various Kingdoms give them donations to show their support, for no reason other than to support their good work. Coincidences in timing are merely that: coincidences.

As for currency, I like Suns. They can go with Moons (silver) and Hearts (copper). That should be the FKS's currencey, minted by Aurelia.
Furnshakt uses the barter system.
Non-FKS human nations may mint their own coins, but in practice they often use Suns.
Dwarves don't name their currency beyond "Gold" and "Silver" and names of that nature.
Sergals use bits of glaze, perhaps?
Toltecatl have no currency of their own. Faestir use silver shillings. Both elf types use paper money among themselves, but as other races rarely except worthless bits of paper as payment, they deal externally in dwarven gold. Elfwrit comes in any value, but must be stamped with a seal of authenticity to maintain its value.
The Lawless Human Towns use all manners of currency.
The Boldlings do not use money, and don't really understand ownership.
Doobies transcend the need for currency.

I think I got everyone?
For players, of course, a gold piece is a gold piece is a gold piece.
No. 2404 ID: 43d730

You missed Sea Goblins. They probably just use whatever they get their hands on and use Boom Jelly amongst themselves.

The next question is what to call the various units of currency.
And the problem of forgery.
The glazes on Sergal Chits would have to be very rare, or at least very hard to reproduce... Or the penalty for forging them is so severe only the stupidly confident and desperate try it. On the other hand, they don't have much in the way of precious metals, right? How about their money is ceramic pieces that represent labor? It's backed by the army. (i.e. one 'Day' is worth the amount of work one average adult sergal can accomplish in one day.) Too weird?
Elves can use Arcane Marks, no trouble there.
Dorfs would have an advanced barter system, with a unified system of weights, measures, and purity to standardise everything.

I thought they WERE the government of Aurelia, or at least the military arm of it.
No. 2405 ID: 43d730

I played a cleric in a campaign a while back that was mostly based in a theocracy. It was low-level ingenuity-rewarding action, and one of the funniest moments was arranging for the rogue to cover a wight or something (not sure what it was) with gold coins, then channeling a Turning through the coins, because they all had little holy symbols on them.
Said rogue later killed a werewolf with a thrown silverware drawer.

Just a semi-related anecdote.
No. 2411 ID: efa41b

>Sea Goblins
Sounds good.

>what to call the various units of currency.
Um... mostly as listed? I think we've got that under control.

>How about their money is ceramic pieces that represent labor? It's backed by the army. (i.e. one 'Day' is worth the amount of work one average adult sergal can accomplish in one day.)
BRILLIANT! And not too weird, it's great. Except "backed by the army" doesn't make sense. How about backed by the army as in "The army will give you the use of dustback slaves at this rate"

>Elves can use Arcane Marks, no trouble there.
Actually, there is trouble there. First of all, it makes magic more ubiquitous than we really want. We want to keep shit gritty.
It also means the Wila would need something different. They absorb magic. They do not use magic.
Besides, I liked the name Elfwrit ;_;

>Dorfs would have an advanced barter system, with a unified system of weights, measures, and purity to standardise everything.
I love that, in theory. In practice, players aren't going to want to deal with that crap. Perhaps their standard unit of currency can be a "gold ounce", a one ounce gold coin stamped by the fortress where it was made.

Well, an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold. You can try mixing in lesser metals, but it would be a lot of work, and if you come up against a merchant with a set of scales, you're outed pretty easily.
Elfwrit has very complicated designs, and as such requires such skill to create that forgery is essentially negligible.
A Sergal Day could conceivably be forged, though. I don't know how to deal with that. Perhaps using fancy glazes is necessary after all. Even that's a bit odd, though. I dunno, anybody have better ideas?
Sergal currency can be fairly rudimentary, since they're kind of new to the global stage, and newer to the global economic scene.
They should still have gotten their currency past the point where it can be forged by anyone with a mold, though.

My understanding on Aurelia is that it's essentially the Papal States, from a political point of view. It doesn't really have military, though I suppose it could bring up a militia if it needed to. Mostly, though, it relies on religious significance to prevent attack.
The Holy Orders, though they live in Aurelia and police it, are not under direct control of the High Priest.

Also, the High Priest needs a better title. Perhaps the Successor to Aurel? Since Aurel was a prophet, it makes sense that it be more of a Muslim type deal. Probably shouldn't be hereditary, but rather based on election from the High Priests.
No. 2412 ID: 43d730

Yeah, that does work better. Entire families, closely watched to prevent oddities, and specially trained to make the most ridiculously hard-to-replicate designs in the world. That are also quite pretty.
Semirelatedly, I doubt the Sidhe would have no casters at all. It's just too useful a tool not to have someone know how it works.
Speaking of the Sidhe, I can also see them having an advanced barter system. It helps for mercantilism to trade goods for goods, and I can definitely see most of the trade being information anyway.

I was suggesting that they don't bother with coins. Maybe blocks or something. An ounce of gold is a lump about 'this big'. Although I can see them working off favor tallies easily too.

Either way, it guarantees the money being worth labor. Which raises a separate and interesting idea: Stipends. War-widows running ranches or farms off the labor instead of the money.
The problem, then, is 'which profession is the Day based on?' Herders do little work for parts of the year, then frantically work for a few days. Pottery is too much based on skill.
And what are the subdenominations of Days? Hours? Quarter Hours?
No. 2415 ID: 43d730

"The last guy to try making ten-day chits? Well, he's around the city. All the way around."
No. 2420 ID: 43d730

Wila. That should be 'I doubt the Wila have no casters at all.' and 'Speaking of the Wila...'.
No. 2430 ID: 1b3493

I kind of think each kingdom would still mint their own currency, but Aurelian suns are probably dominant. After all, they get a lot of gold in tribute and there are only so many roofs you can decorate. The excess gets stamped and recirculated.

>>You missed Sea Goblins. They probably just use whatever they get their hands on and use Boom Jelly amongst themselves.

Well each ship must carry a lot of money. Specific chests for each country they happen to trade with. Also makes them a tempting target for pirates. Cannons are tough, but it doesn't make them invincible and the rewards are high.

Amongst themselves they probably use a lot of ledgers. No sense carrying around a lot of dangerous gold that could be better used for cargo. Then it clicked for me.

Banking. Goblins are everywhere and they all communicate with each other. One way they can make themselves valuable is by taking your gold at the local office, issuing you a writ of deposit and letting you pick up an identical amount (minus fees) at your destination.

Other races have probably copied the idea, but nobody else has their global reach. People trust them and not just because they have hostages (ghetto goblins) all over the place. It's an easy money maker for them and the rich who use their services are always helpful allies to have.

Plus it adds a whole new dimension of criminal opportunities to the setting.
No. 2435 ID: efa41b

The Sidhe do have casters. Most of their fleshwarpers use magic. The Wila do not have casters. The do not like casters, and traditionally are of the opinion that use of magic leads to downfall. Like a hubris type of deal, except with magery rather than pride.
Also, magic is not a useful tool. You're thinking in terms of DnD magic. Magic in this setting is mysterious shit that most people never really interact with.

I see no reason why the Wila can't use Elfwrit too, though it would make sense that they would have their own designs.

Oh, okay. As long as there's a unit of currency functionally equivalent to a Sun, we're good.

They aren't based on any profession. They are literally worth one day's work. One unskilled southern sergal slave, for one day. You can make them work whatever profession you want. A skilled slave would cost more.

And naturally, if you injure or kill a slave that you're using, you have to pay damages.
No. 2436 ID: 43d730

I approve.

I was asking so there was some frame of reference on skilled labor. For example, a moderately skilled potter might pull a ranking of five, meaning that he collects five Days for each day that he works. (assuming he's not doing freelance and that he's not being paid on commission.)

Their ancestors were of that opinion, and while tradition is a strong force, I don't think they'd have no casters at all. Heck, what are their clerics (not the priests, the ones that are actually out messing with divine magic) like?
No. 2438 ID: 43d730

The dorfish currency is goods.
The only reason anything is valuable is because it can be made into something useful, or already is something useful.
Hence the lack of coins- gold is valuable because it's raw materials.

I can see Elfwrit being a sticking point.
"Ye want to buy a hunnert fine steel arrowheads? Sure, what's yer offer?"
"This humble one offers a gift of ... Seventy-five Writs."
"Nay, laddie, I'm luw on wuid. Yer gonta need ta pay in trees."
No. 2439 ID: efa41b

Oh, I see. Well, a free potter would generally freelance. I'd say anywhere from a Day and a half to five should be good for a slave, depending on skill.
Incidentally, that may be a goos subdenomination - just use fractions.

Oh, I wasn't thinking in terms of Divine, just Arcane. Gods grant favors as-per-normal for Wila, specific details on them exists in the religion page on 1d4chan. Divine's not really the same thing at all.
No. 2440 ID: 43d730

Still, I thought that the dedicated Magic-Eaters were also rare.
There's no reason not to have at least a few arcane casters in the country, or possibly exiles.

Although this raises another point- if they can eat magic, shouldn't they have a limited ability to sense it? And I don't think we ever ended up ironing the stats out.
No. 2448 ID: 1b3493

Drow (Wila) spell resistance is just a holdover from the fact that they have it in D&D. Since there is no use reinventing the wheel it has been kept. It doesn't seem to have much of an impact on their ability to use magic in other settings.
No. 2449 ID: 43d730

The only system I've seen where magic resistance affects casting ability is Ironclaw.
Still, I recall two prestige classes in planning- the Spelleater, that was combat-focused and went for temporary stat boosts for consumed magic, and the Voidmage, that converted them into enhancements to their own casting.
No. 2451 ID: efa41b

While this idea is entirely legitimate, I don't think banking is something we want to get into from a thematic perspective.

Neither of the Elf races have finalized d20 stats. They're the only ones left who don't.

No it isn't. They were the ones who wanted to not have anything to do with magic. That's why they're black; elf skin tints based on exposure to magic.

GURPS' Mana Damper ability does too.
However if the Voidmage class is planned, it would seem that Wila are not intended to work that way, despite it being most consistent with the fluff.
I retract my earlier statement, and request additional information pertaining to how the fuck that is even supposed to work.
No. 2452 ID: efa41b

Speaking of GURPS...

Some races need racial skills, I know. In addition to that, I don't know the system super well, does anybody see any problems?
No. 2453 ID: 43d730

The Voidmage prestige class might have to deal with reduced spellcasting; I was waiting for the stats to be ironed out before writing anything up for it.
Heck, this might end up as nothing more than a few feats.
No. 2454 ID: 43d730

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with GURPS, though I'm glad you did that.

I've been waiting around for a couple months to convert things over to Ironclaw, because I didn't want that to be the second conversion.

They take in magic energy and throw it back out. I assume they are not magical black holes for this, however. If that's the direction things are going, that's fine too.
No. 2458 ID: 43d730

+2 Hide, (Handle Animal OR Diplomacy), and Sense Motive.
Base land speed 30 ft.
Bluff always class skill.
SR 5+1/2 HD.
Low-Light Vision.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Racial Feats
Magic Eater- Increase your natural SR by four.
Thaumovoric Euphoria- Whenever a spell or magic effect fails to penetrate your SR, you get a +2 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws for one round per level of the spell.
Retribution of the Deniers- Whenever a spell fails to penetrate your SR, you may return it upon its caster. They are allowed a save against their own spell as normal. You become Fatigued for one minute after using this ability. Using it while Fatigued causes you to become Exhausted until you rest.
No. 2459 ID: efa41b

Sounds good to me. Or at least, it represents their fluff well. The Cha bonus makes them effective sorcerers, though.
I'm thinking that maybe the should get a penalty to Caster Level to balance this out. What do you guys think?

Also, since we're on crunch now, anyone have any ideas on the Sidhe? They're kind of awkward to work with, just because their defining features aren't really stuff represented by stats in D20
No. 2460 ID: 1b3493

Very nice work. I'd probably take away bad smel for the gnolls. They don't bathe much, but they aren't skunk monsters. I'd replace it with a few levels of Odious Personal Habits.

I'd also give them a few bonuses for low-light vision and sensing by smell. They've never been anything but nomadic, nocturnal hunters so should have those as natural edges.

You are probably right about the banking. Vyntril and the Wila are probably pushing the TL3 for the setting suggested in the GURPS page. The biggest cities get close to Neal Stephenson's Barogue Cycle, but the majority of the world is solidly Medieval or earlier.
No. 2462 ID: 43d730

>CL penalty
Just put in social stigma. Also, it gives them a another reason to be out and about.
They did come from the same stock as the Sidhe, the preeminent casters in the setting; Just because they don't do anything with it doesn't mean it's not there.

Well, they have that +2 Faggotry ability...

Unrelatedly, if I run out of stuff to do this weekend, I'll start rolling up some example characters.
No. 2466 ID: 43d730

Anyone have a means to work up character sheets online?
No. 2468 ID: e4190e

Needs an account, but it's good.
No. 2469 ID: 43d730


Tell me if this works.

I figured Totemist would work fairly well as a kind of shaman, probably a slightly more combat-oriented kind than the usual.
The idea of the melds isn't shaping phlebotinum into a bunch of crap; it's more like letting spirits possess specific portions of your body as payment for power.
Feel free to kibitz.
No. 2471 ID: 43d730


I'm quite sorry for this.
No. 2473 ID: e4190e

Looks good to me. I don't know how Totemists work, but it seems to fit well. The fluff is good, creating a reasonably interesting character who still gives a good idea of how the fluff works out.

Only thing that's a little off is the sickle. Generally speaking, any death is permanent. Clerics powerful enough are hard to come by, the only one who for sure is would be the Successor to Aurel, and I really doubt anyone could persuade him to resurrect a Laughing One anyway.

A better way to deal with religious significance in items is to use it as just that; purely religious. It serves no purpose other than to empower a spirit and encourage favors. Thus the stone circle would always be used for a coup de gras, and as often as possible used for the finishing blow.

The background etc. seems a bit on the sparse side. Also, I would make the eye color "Different depending on mood". I feel like that would go well with the character.
No. 2474 ID: 43d730

That's what I was thinking, hence the question mark.
The character thinks it does, but then the character also thinks the Laughing Ones are evil spirits that possess gnolls that enjoy the nighttime a little too much.
Leaving it vague.
No. 2475 ID: 43d730

I'll finish up another one in the morning.
And by morning, I mean 'When I get up tomorrow'.
No. 2477 ID: e4190e

>Garet the Broad
So uh... like wide? Because a being a broad and having an "m" in the gender section isn't something you usually see outside of a Reaver quest.
Oh wait. I wrote that before I saw "his nickname is open to jokes". Now I don't feel so clever any more.
Seems in keeping with the fluff.

>Shivi Yobolat Thirku
She has a riding bird... as in, a chocobo?
Also seems like most of thase descriptive boxes could be applied to almost all Faestir.
No. 2478 ID: 1b3493

Wow, I don't know what method you used to create them, but freaking awesome. A playable doobie plus amazing details. Scratched out Gorgossan symbol on the masterwork sword, a manskin belt for the Ghost Face and tuberculosis for the faestir (which should now be a canon problem for the race, they live in a damp ruin).
No. 2481 ID: 43d730

...This is too much fun.
We should get the stats ironed out on Sidhe so one of each can be done.
No. 2482 ID: 43d730

Yeah, that was more of an in-joke. I figure they have something equivalent on Lindwurm- Less carrying capacity, but faster. More of a messenger than a mount for war.
Have attempted some revisions of flavor.

Standard array.
15 14 13 12 10 8
Other than that, just alternating between playing stereotypes straight and subverting them.
No. 2485 ID: 43d730

Here's another thing...
There's a little bit of work with Iron warding off the Gentry, and that's good. Also Doobietonite shutting down regeneration.
What about silver?
Meteoric Metals?

What something is made from is a nice low-cost alternative to magicking something up, and in a low-magic setting that will be very important.
On a similar note to low cost magic alternatives, poisons unique to the Unified Setting.
No. 2487 ID: e4190e

>What about silver?
Associated with the Moon. Likewise, Gold is associated with the Sun.
This word, essentially means "hard thing", or diamond.
I'm thinking same as DF, fluffwise. In terms of crunch, let's say it gives +3 damage to weapons, +1 AC to medium armor and +2 to Heavy.
This word has even less inherent meaning than Adamant.
That's what powers their cities, and stuff in them.
>Meteoric Metals?
I dunnolol.
Also, Mithril is a pretty common one. I'd say +3 attack, +1 Damage. Armors get +1 max Dex bonus, one less Check penalty.

>poisons unique to the Unified Setting.
We have plenty of creatures in the bestiary, many of whom are venomous. Let's work from there.
I'm not doing it now though, going to sleep.
No. 2488 ID: 43d730

What effect would coating your roofs in gold have if gold acts as a nice conduit for solar magic?
Does silver use the authority of the moon to strike lesser spirits, or is it something else?
Is there any truth to the idea that Mithril is lucky?
Why is Adamantine only used in mechanisms deep in the ground?
If these metals are so useful, then why aren't they used more often? (Other than scarcity.)
What about gemstones?
Other useful, unique substances?
No. 2489 ID: 43d730

I'm suggesting that they should have more significance than just something else to tack on.
No. 2506 ID: 43d730

We've got alchemist's fire from the naval combat section...
What else can alchemy do?
No. 2517 ID: 1b3493

One of the posted character sheets had all the usual 3.5 alchemy (both paid for and needed in his job as a miracle tonic salesman). What more do are you looking for?

Since it seems to be random idea tossing out time, what do draconic-hunting Faestir do with the artifacts they find? Dump them overboard where the Illithid could find them? Or take them back home where rumors of the Faestir stockpiling draconic weapons (not to mention a tempting target for both thieves and pro-draconic factions) could turn the other races against them?
No. 2518 ID: 43d730

Bejwaere is mostly underground already, and it wouldn't be too hard to dig out large spaces or devote natural caverns to storage of dangerous things.


Holy shit, Bejwaere has the Warehouse.
No. 2543 ID: 43d730


...These are not finished.
As it happens, I'm having some trouble thinking of quirks for them.
Suggestions are more than welcome.
No. 2544 ID: 43d730

I'm going for characters that either exemplify the race as a whole and have some quirk that would put them out on the adventurer's path, or characters that are notably exceptions to the norm and thus have a reason to adventure.

Side Notes: I've been putting down whatever seemed funny or appropriate for languages, but we might want to codify that at some point.
Additionally, clerics and domains.
No. 2557 ID: fc854e

All those examples are pretty good. Corcoran seems particularly awesome to me. I lol'd at Double Heresy. There's some cool concepts there to. Also-
>Rape Harness
... I don't believe a unicode stare would be sufficient.
No. 2573 ID: 43d730

Also unfinished.
Blast Reaver and his quests of distractingness.
Items on the agenda:
Language (Dialects? Accents? Names?)
Applied Divine Magic (Domains? A Shaman class, because cleric is bollocks for that kind of thing? What about REALLY minor gods?)
Finalised stats for the Sidhe and a review of the stats we have for everything else?
Getting an actual game going?
No. 2597 ID: 1b3493

Flu season hit early this year so I expect a lot of people are still in an anti-histamine fog. Lots of good work on the sheets though. Kobold paladin still makes me giggle.

Languages are probably going to be mostly racial. Sure there is going to be linguistic drift, but we can lump them in under dialects, pretty close (ala Spanish and Portugese) or just accents. The Furnshaktians for example probably sound like AHNOLD circa Commando to FK ears.

Toltecatl is a very difficult language to learn. The only people speaking Draconic are Faestir priests. It's like Latin in the traditional Catholic Mass. It does mean that a surprising number of seminary students wind up in the entourage of Barthelmian ruin-hunters though.

As for a Common or trade-pidgin? Goblin would be the logical choice, but they are pretty far down the totem pole. It would be unique to the setting though, avoid the silliness of a Common language and provide for good role-playing.

"Sure you can make yourself understood in goblin. Everybody knows a little bit, but it marks you as an uneducated, low-class moneygrubber. These are Sidhe you are dealing with, how do you think they will react?"
No. 2603 ID: 43d730

Perfection of Pursuits- Choose one: A +2 perfection bonus to two skills, a +1 bonus to either melee attack rolls or ranged attack rolls, a +1 perfection bonus to AC, a +1 Perfection bonus to caster level for a chosen school, or a +5 foot bonus to base land speed.
Perfection of Form- A host of little biological quirks and conveniences that amount to the following: Never penalised on social rolls for unkemptness (Hair that never tangles, dirt brushes off skin, etc. They still comb it and wash, though. Goits). Indistinguishable from each other by scent (They all smell like lilacs or some shit, unless other measures are taken). Immune to magic sleep effects, only need to sleep for four hours. Negate -10 penalty to Listen checks made while asleep. Probably enjoy sex more than everybody else, the assmunches.
Superior Low-Light Vision
Should universal skill bonuses be tacked on? Listen, spot, that one secret doors thing no one remembers, etc?
Commence tearing, boys.
No. 2604 ID: 43d730

Forgot the '+2 Being A Dick'.
No. 2614 ID: 43d730

Well, one of the houserules we'd always use at the table was abolishing or limiting Common, having a Linguistics skill, and allowing twofers with a drawback (like a Dialect or Accent).
No. 2699 ID: afbe56

I know what we can do about Sidhe Perfection! Increase their maximum skill ranks! So a level 1 wizard could have 5 ranks in spellcraft, for example. Or 6 or 7, I don't know how far we should raise it. It's perfect! Their mastery of the stuff they master allows them to be better than the other races. Of course there,s a cost, they don't develop elsewhere; mechanically they still must spend skill points.

Thoughts? Or is it perfect? It seems perfect to me, but it's 6 in the morning here, so that could just be me.
No. 2700 ID: 43d730

The only thing I could see that bollixing up is Prestige Class entry.
No. 2701 ID: afbe56

I don't know that that would really be a problem though. Most prestige classes (and certainly most good ones) have requirements beyond mere skills. And it's a case where if something doesn't seem to fit, the GM should be ruling it out.
Looking at the srd, the only prestiges there that would be effected are Horizon Walker and Lore Master, both of which are fairly mediocre, and to be honest, giving them to a character a level or two early seems entirely acceptable to me.
No. 2702 ID: 43d730

Then run with it.
What about the rest of the stats?
No. 2923 ID: e7666f

What about the elvish swordsmen that spend their entire lives training in a half-self-taught martial style? Are they to be left by the wayside with the blademasters of the other races?
No. 2924 ID: 2655b4

Of course not. They can max out Perform (bladework).
No. 2925 ID: e7666f

These guys were considered enough of a military force to prevent Dorfs and Humans from attacking, and I doubt that was all pretty sword-dances.
How is the Sidhe military organized?
No. 2927 ID: 5c3942
File 12591627001.jpg - (27.93KB , 360x276 , chimneysweep-mary-poppins.jpg )


>good with heights
>carry long pole-based implements

No. 2928 ID: 5c3942


Most other races who think of the Faestir, if they know of them at all, tend to picture weatherproof clothing, hats, and quiet warriors.

What few realize is that Faestir also produce the finest chimneysweeps in the world.
No. 2929 ID: dda9dd

I'm okay with this.
No. 2931 ID: e7666f

They have BEEEEEEEES underground, but they need something to make the wool...
Roving herds of goats all over the surface, jumping from slippery rock to slippery rock.
And the chimneys are a source of heat and gathering points, because they presumably have ironworks somewhere.
They'd have to be narrow enough to keep Kobolds out, though.
No. 2932 ID: 5c3942


Bejwaere is mostly caves, but I'd guess a sufficiently advanced society could put chimneys through the rock... indeed, would have to, to cook and forge and suchlike while not also giving themselves horrible throat and lung disorders. They'd be awfully labyrinthine things, though.

What with the perpetual rain and complicated architecture, Opossokarthel probably had a lot of very intricate chimney systems as well, though not as much as the plumbing. Considering that, it's possible that the Faestir chimneysweeping profession goes way, way back. An old guild, with traditions and legends and amicably informal despite its great age and racial heritage?

Might even by a PrC in it. Something roguelike, emphasizing luck, charm and navigation of tight spaces. "Coincidentally" handy for dungeon diving.
No. 2933 ID: 5c3942


I wonder how big those bees are. Perhaps it'd be interesting to have them be so large as to be unnerving to anyone who isn't a Faestir, particularly when the beekeeper insists that the thumb-sized things sitting on his shoulders are perfectly harmless but if you're really scared you can wear the veil which, on inspection, would clearly prove no obstacle to those things should they decide they don't like you.

The beekeepers would probably be habitual pipe smokers, while I'm suggesting things. The smoke of certain plants is a common means of keeping bees calm.
No. 2934 ID: e7666f

Covered in soot, sneaking through the pipes in the walls, never seen- just the clean flues and missing payment.
No. 2935 ID: dda9dd

RATS!? RATS IN THE WALLS! Oh those terribly thin walls in the spaces between all things!...they say twas me but, but they must know that I did not do it. They must know it was the rats; the slithering scurrying rats whose scampering will never let me sleep; the daemon rats that race behind the padding in this room and beckon me down to greater horrors than I have ever known; the rats they can never hear; the rats, the rats in the walls. It it must have been the rats; the viscous, gelatinous, ravenous army that feast on the dead and the living ... Why shouldn't rats eat a de la Poer as a de la Poer eats forbidden things? ... The war ate my boy, damn them all ... and the Yanks ate Carfax with flames and burnt Grandsire Delapore and the secret ... No, no, I tell you, I am not that daemon swineherd in the twilit grotto! It was not Edward Norrys' fat face on that flabby fungous thing! Who says I am a de la Poer? He lived, but my boy died! ... Shall a Norrys hold the land of a de la Poer? ... It's voodoo, I tell you ... that spotted snake ... Curse you, Thornton, I'll teach you to faint at what my family do! ... 'Sblood, thou stinkard, I'll learn ye how to gust ... wolde ye swynke me thilke wys?... Magna Mater! Magna Mater!... Atys... Dia ad aghaidh's ad aodaun... agus bas dunarch ort! Dhonas 's dholas ort, agus leat-sa!... Ungl unl... rrlh ... chchch...
No. 2936 ID: e7666f

>draconic monsters in the pipes
>Good at jumping
No. 2937 ID: 5c3942


Sounds appropriate. They provide a valuable service, true, but they're so... grubby! You certainly don't want to see any in your nice clean home. Fits in well with the pseudo-aristocratic british sensibilities: one purpose of secret passages in your house was so that servants could move around without you or your guests having to see them.

So to summarize for a Sweeper PrC, we should have skills for:
- Stealth
- A bit of fire resistance
- Navigating small and/or twisty passages/flues/vents/etc. , for which:
--- some kind of enhanced sense to make up for the darkness. Hearing may be most appropriate to improve.
--- bonuses to Climb, Balance, etc, maybe actual Climb Speed later on.

Optional mary poppins references:
- Lucky
- Charming
- Dance (ties in with Faestir culture)

Considering that these guys would pretty much be able to go anywhere and hide in the walls unseen, it's possible they also do a bit of spying on the side. Not official (or, not officially official), just to the point that if there's an unsolved murder the first thing you do is bang on the walls so a Sweeper pops his blackened head down out the chimney and you ask him if he heard anything.
No. 2938 ID: 7eda8b

The elephant in the room, I think, is that Cutebold Slaughter Fest is everything the US was supposed to be.
No. 2939 ID: 5c3942


Alternate time period, bro! It all works!
No. 2940 ID: 5c3942


Well in that case we should add one or two little links to CSQ from the US! We don't want an overloaded setting, but we don't need to add much. Most of the differences and reasons for differences can be fixed up by anyone who'd want to do up a CSQ-based setting. Perhaps a few little plot hooks here and there, that could maybe possibly see the US heading in that direction. Nothing more.
No. 2943 ID: 5c3942


Actually... considering the history of the Faestir, I'd expect that at some point they'd have been called in to help defend the city. They're stealthy, they know their way around, where to hide, the soot would make them melt right into the shadows, they've got a good grip on using a pole... good for defense against an invasion. Then? Well, they'd likely be drummed in again the next time, and the next time... by the modern era, they'd have gotten used to it, expect it, even prepared for it. A little mechanical tinkery can make you a chimney brush that can retract its bristles and flick out a spearpoint. So...

Chimney ninjas.
No. 2944 ID: 5c3942

And every year, on a particular festival day in the middle of winter, the Sweepers help out the postal service by using the flue system to stealthily deliver all the gifts to their destinations the night before...
No. 2945 ID: e7666f

It's the future of the unified setting.
Few hundred years down the line, the underdark equivalent tunnels to the surface, technology develops more, the Ithilliad gets turned back but not destroyed...
With creator approval, of course.

Some kind of ability to reduce size for the purposes of Escape Artist checks, and bonus on same.

They might not do so well in a stand-up fight, but city fighting would make them a nightmare.

This is the best idea ever.
No. 2946 ID: 5c3942

>stand-up fight

Well, they are rogue-based, though I think they'd definitely lose sneak attack progression. Maybe some kind of AC bonus due to general agility increase, to compensate? And/or better Fortitude. I imagine someone who moves back and forth in tight, hot tunnels all day would have to be pretty durable.

(minus the lung cancer of course)
No. 2949 ID: e7666f

I dunno if loss of sneak attack is a good idea, but another main ability of the class would be the Guild support.
After all, being successful would raise you higher in the guild...

I still think they'd have a Plumber's guild, too.

Is there a distinct class divide in Faestir society, or is this more a career stereotype thing?
A wider gap would be more british, but they seem too few and desperate to buy too much into it.
No. 2950 ID: e7666f

Nah, the last of the plumbers would have died in defense of Opposokarthel, keeping the most delicate workings of the city's defenses functional against waves of kobold looters.
Some say their spirits might aid those who wish to restore the city to its rightful glory.

Speaking of which, what about ghosts in the setting? Just another undead, or undead with a reason, or mysterious plot device?
No. 2952 ID: dda9dd

I tend to see Unified Setting more as a source for ideas less as a source of actual quests or setting, a sort testing ground for racial relationships, ideas, and stories if you will.

Indeed seems more and more as though /quest/ is more organically making its own unified setting though connections being woven together though references to other quests.
No. 2960 ID: 889822


I'd say there WAS a big social gap, but now the whole race has been squashed up together and it's all very uncomfortable and amusing, with the class behaviours still visible but everyone getting much more involved with each other.

In the interests of this, I propose that lower class Faestir are called "rainies" (because they lived in lesser quality homes, more vulnerable to rain and damp, and worked more outdoors) and speak with a cockney-esque accent. With slang.

Rainy Rhyming Slang.

An' be sure ya switch the turkey proper, guv, it's duck an' run ta come up with good Rainy. Send your adventurers down th' dragons to give th' helmets a chase, and if they get back maybe one of th' diamonds will agree t' translate for th' bloody swimmins!
No. 2962 ID: 89980d

Considering Faestir were made out of desert rats by Bahamut, I was wondering if maybe there might be some curse or magical condition that could reverse that. Some distant mining colony or expedition gets visited for the first time in years and oh crap what is this i dont even-

Perhaps some artifact that drains any draconian magic into itself for power, perhaps - stealing each other's mojo was one of the things they did. Perhaps it would even be a surviving draconian doing it, to keep him/herself juiced up. If it's only a partial change, then you also get a bunch of pygmy neanderthal ratmen for minions into the bargain! What a deal.
No. 2963 ID: 43d730

Well, an easy divisor in class would be relative presence of Vaess heritage (Nearly everyone might have a little, but CAN YOU TRACE YOUR LINEAGE BACK TO ONE I DIDN'T THINK SO), but that only affects that specific brand of rare magics.
Maybe it's an forced stereotype thing? There's the higher-class families that focus around bloodlines, and the lower-class members of society adopt an exaggerated stereotype partially as a joke and partially to get the topic off bloodlines? Some of the upper crust would catch on, of course, but it works as a massive societal in-joke.

It's been a while since the process went through... would the intervening generations have an effect on that?
Actually, that's a good starting point for any kind of power-hungry lifewarper. "Schemata for Reducing Intellect While Increasing Strength and Loyalty in Pretty Much Anything With Higher Brain Functions" or "Make-A-Minion".
No. 2964 ID: 89980d

"Unlike the majority of groups which employ the art of stealth, the Sweepers of the Faestir are well-known to the general populace, mostly due to being drawn from the tightly-knit communities of the urban lower classes. General opinion of the organization is mixed. On the one hand, the idea of silent, unseen listeners in one's walls unsettles anyone, but the Sweepers are known for being helpful, acting as guides for lost travelers, patrons of small businesses, and of course keeping one's chimney's clean for a very reasonable price.

Adding to their unusual position in the public eye is the (in)famously down-to-earth charm that Sweepers are capable of employing. The greater part of this reputation is no doubt due to the oft-repeated tale of a long-lived Sweeper who successfully and successively wooed the ladies of no less than three generations of the prestigious Valaskr family. Similar stories remain numerous and diverse to this day."
No. 2965 ID: 89980d


Well, class could also be a function of wealth and prestige. I'd imagine anyone who distinguishes themselves in the military would be made a noble through something similar to knighting or whathaveyou (Faestir strike me as being well-impressed with deeds in war, enough to overcome class bias), and getting rich with trade would boost you into a middle class, at least.
No. 2968 ID: b33820

By the way, on the subject of Faestir - back when we were just using Burmecians, we had the Cleyrans involved as well. What's the deal now that we've changed it up?
No. 2969 ID: 43d730

I think somewhere along the line the second city disappeared, but don't quote me on that.
They couldn't have just had Opposokarthel, they would have needed other cities.
The original reason for having the two cities was to have the tension between the warlike Cleyra and the artsy Burmecians, so...
No. 2970 ID: b33820


I think it was the Burmecians who were warlike and the Cleyras who were artsy.

If I understood correctly, the difference was due to origin? The Faestir who followed Reis became peaceful and artistic, while the ones who hung out with the Vaess became a warrior culture? I think that sounds good. We should keep that somehow, not just extra cities but a little racial division.

If we borrow the "devolved" faestir idea from earlier, we could say that Faestir who followed neither Reis or the Vaess (or who were tempted by an unknown third party) somehow degenerated into a bestial subspecies, halfway between Faestir and desert rat. Aside from everything else, it would help move Faestir a little away from just being Burmecian expies and more to their own thing.
No. 2972 ID: b33820


Ok, so if "Vaess" becomes "Vaesstir" (Faestir), then "Reis" can become "Raesstir".

So. Faestir = rain, urban, military. Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, Wizards.
Raesstir = sand, rural, artistic. Druids, Bards, Sorcerers, maybe Barbarians.
No. 2978 ID: c6ad16

They were either excised or changed so much as to be unrecognizable, depending on how you look at it. We retain a duology, but the base is solely their origin. Their was never a second city. Thus, the FF fluff was removed but the core concept remains, as the Vaess and Reis' offspring.

There's not really any "Hung out" involved. Bahamut made all the original ones. First he made Reis, for no known reason. Then, when he got himself in a little war, he made the Vaess uth Bahamut, by basically using Reis as a template (which implies that designing a creature is more difficult than making one from an existing design). He then buffed them up considerably. They're his war models as it were. Now, at this point all the Faestir were implied to be female, and thus not a viable race. So Leviathan knocks up Reis with LOLDRAGUNMAJICK and she has over 9000 babies. The babies are not buffed up.

Leviathan gave Opossokarthel to the Children of Reis, wherein they had music and art and stuff. The Vaess, however, were still bound to Bahamut and spent some several hundreds of years in his service. When he passed, the Vaess uth Bahamut were without purpose or home, and sought both in Opossokarthel. Now, for many centuries, the Vaess and the regular Faestir fucked each other, and so it got to the point where there the benefit of blood became so dilute as to be unnoticeable. When Tiamat attacked, the original Vaess, who were unaging were either all or almost all killed in defense of Opossokarthel, which was then destroyed. Since then, the blood differences have become even more subtle, and it is true that all have the blood of those blessed by Bahamut. I reckon a feat to represent higher blood would not be unwarranted.

>Ok, so if "Vaess" becomes "Vaesstir" (Faestir),
Faestir is derived from a different draconian word, actually. The faes were the rats from which the Faestir were made, "-tir" essentially being equivalent to "-folk". "Vaess" is part of the longer title "Vaess uth Bahamut". It literally is Arrows of Bahamut. Doubtless Bahamut thought himself clever for the phonetic similarities.
>then "Reis" can become "Raesstir".
No? They are all Reis children. It would be like one human calling another "Son of Adam" (irl, not in-universe). It's not like it would never happen, but it wouldn't be used to identify social classes.
Also, the vowel switching is stupid.
>So. Faestir = rain, urban, military. Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, Wizards.
>Raesstir = sand, rural, artistic. Druids, Bards, Sorcerers, maybe Barbarians.
Assuming by "Faestir" you mean upper class, and you mean lower class by "Raesstir":
They all live underground. Water drips, and I'm sure there's sand around, but it has no real meaning.
Again, no real meaning. Bejwaere has no true rural areas. However, traditionally urban jobs vs traditionally rural jobs has meaning, and I agree.
I dunno... We definitely have upper class military elites, but I'd imagine that the lower class puts some effort into drilling with a polearm when they get time, as well.
Art could be more frequently the purview of the lower class, but if we go there we run the risk of making things too similar to the Sergal setup. Perhaps we could cast it in direct opposition - Sergals make their art anonymously, and often for a cause. Faestir tie their art to their names, and use it to garner respect.

Seems about right to me, though I think that druids and barbarians both run rather counter to the idea of Faestir as they are. I'd think Clerics are common for any level of society, too, though obviously worship will be different in different places.
No. 2979 ID: b39322


It seems kind of odd to me that the Faestir would only ever have ONE city, huge though it may have been. What about... mining, trade, agricultural centres? You can't support a city with city farms, so you need rural farms. If you have rural farms you need rural settlements.

And isn't Opossokarthel in the middle of a desert? That's why they need the rain in the first place. Run-off from the city, then, creates a green belt around the city for farms. Then desert. But they'd need roads through the desert. So you'd get a few settlements along those roads, and various creatures that live out there. Maybe desert raiders, attacking caravans and suchlike. If it's not a natural desert, but the result of some draconian civil war fallout or something, then you'd also get treasure hunters and monsters and ruins and so on.

Faestir/Reistir would be a social divide in how one refers to oneself and one's race. By calling yourself a Faestir, you emphasize your origin as a soldier of Bahamut, and calling yourself a Reistir emphasizes your origin from Reis and all her wholesome fertility mother-goddess shenanigans. A human calling another human "Son of Adam" isn't that far-fetched, by the way, since "human" is short form of "humanus" which means "Child of the Earth".

To continue with the idea of racial division, mashing up the artistic flavour with the military flavour thus far has seemed sort of confusing and ill-defined to me, and not something that would have survived a few thousand years of social head-butting. So, how about if the Faestir live in the city, have their military, have their upper and lower class and so on, and the Reistir live in the green belt around the city, where they get sunshine and greenery and sand? Then the Reistir get the classes and themes mentioned before, as the Feistir do, and there's space for them to develop a distinct culture.
No. 2980 ID: b39322

A great thing for showing the flavor of a race is a champion. Not just a heroic individual, but someone who's a hero to the culture itself: the qualities they hold up as heroic tell you a lot about them and offer a useful shorthand for players on what kind of individual they might play, either by following those standards or subverting them.

So, the sergals already have Rain, I guess. Who do the dwarves have? The elves? Goblins, kobolds, doobies, faestir, human nations?

I was just looking at all this british faestir talk and now I'm imagining some radio-drama gentlemen-adventurer knight guy, all courtesy and reason and noble fisticuffs, traveling around in a lost-technology airship being all chivalrous big-game-hunter detective -like.
No. 2982 ID: 80d073

Well, back in the days when Opossokarthel was more than a ruin, the children of Reis had spent a very long time as the sole inhabitants of the city. Presumably some worked in the fields, but the classes were not yet developed to any extent.
Bejwaere is another story, and we do kind of need some fluff on where some food comes from, though we do have their waxed cloth as a very valuable trading commodity, and thus food is likely a large part of what they trade for.

For names... it still seems rather stupid to me. While you have a point with humanus, you miss my main point entirely: None use the term "Human" to refer to lower-class folks. While a few cultures have considered certain groups less than human, that's generally considered atrocious.

With regards to racial division - ill-defined is not a problem, defining it is what we're working on. Simplifying needlessly is not a good thing.
I wasn't picturing there being a class system so distinct as you seem to be implying - having concrete classes where everybody is either high or low, with no room for variation, is just silly for a group that's been interbreeding for centuries. Especially since it's dependent on blood which all share to some extent.

Rain doesn't really embody Sergal culture, though. As far as new champions, I think we should look sat places where there should be named characters, rather than try and force them everywhere. If any if them yet live, we must take care not to fall into the Elminster trap.
No. 2983 ID: 43d730

For the Faestir supporting themselves:
They have sheep, they have bees.
They're on the ocean, allowing them to mine for fish.
Hardy, sluice-fed mushrooms round things out a bit... Still no grains. What can they grow in constant rain? Rice?

We do need some other movers and shakers, though. Most of them would be dead, yes, but important thing to happen in the last two hundred years or so is human politics and Rain.
The goblins were in stasis for the whole time? The Faestir sat on their duffs and drank tea while pointedly not-whining? The Sidhe just watched everything, adjusted their monocles and harrumphed at how business was being conducted?
No. 2984 ID: 80d073

I don't know about sheep, though - what would the sheep eat?

The rest is good, the fishing in particular seems to solve the issue.

In terms of recent events, most things were a result of the behavior of humans and Sergals.

>The goblins were in stasis for the whole time?
They live in slums or ships. They're hardly movers and shakers.
>The Faestir sat on their duffs and drank tea while pointedly not-whining?
There's only a single city of them - again, they're not important on the world stage.
>The Sidhe just watched everything, adjusted their monocles and harrumphed at how business was being conducted?
Well, they move very slowly on a political scale. I do think that we could make something of some hero who staved off the invasion of Vanawil. It's treated on the Sergal wiki page as little more than a speedbump, but some idea of the glory and such can be shown from the elven point of view on their page.
No. 2985 ID: 43d730

Sorry, goats, not sheep.
I had assumed that the nearly-vertical cave city of Bejwaere was built into one or several mountains, and it opens the possibility of mountain herdsmen.

They still need vegetable proteins, though.
Rice paddies might work. Forage teams are probably unsustainable.
There's also the excuse that some combination of honey, fish, and goat is sufficient for their need... Wait.
What do the bees pollinate?
How the hell do the bees fly in the deluge?
No. 2986 ID: 80d073

Hmm... I'd thought I'd replied to this, but apparently not.

The fact of the matter is, anything that actually increases combat ability yields XP. A swordsman who had practical ability would have got it from defeating other Sidhe on practice combat, most likely. I would imagine that military Sidhe have very long and complicated drill-games that are, like lacrosse, more akin to war than modern games.
No. 2988 ID: 80d073

Bejwaere is built into the cliff-face on the coast. It has natural caves, for reasons we never really delved into, but geothermal activity coupled with a river would probably work best.

>They still need vegetable proteins, though.
Not necesarily, if we decide that their goats are free roaming. Recall that Faestir are a made-up species. We can say that they don't need plant protein. It would be kind of contrived, since they're made from mice, but we could, if we really had to, say that they were insectivorous mice.
>Rice paddies might work.
I don't see how
>Forage teams are probably unsustainable.
Indeed, they generally are.
>There's also the excuse that some combination of honey, fish, and goat is sufficient for their need...
indeed, though it seems contrived.
>What do the bees pollinate?
Heather or gorse or whatever. Stuff outside the caves, anyway.
>How the hell do the bees fly in the deluge?
They don't. They never lived in Opossokarthel; they're native to Bejwaere. Bejwaere has rain only as frequently as her geographical situation warrants, which is not that often. Falling water inside the caverns can doubtless be bypassed simply by going around.
No. 2989 ID: b39322


I don't think I'm getting myself across very well... let me lay out what I'm suggesting a different way.

The draconian civil war ends. The children of Reis are in Oppos, and the Vaess come along to live with them. Over the next few centuries, then, there's a division in society - some people want to emulate the Vaess and hold up military virtues as best, while others reject that ideology as part of what's messed the world up so badly. The first group keeps calling themselves Faestir (thus keeping in mind their creation by Bahamut) while the second calls themselves Reistir (effectively saying they want no part of it). Faestir worship Bahamut first and Reis second, Reistir vice-versa.

The Reistir move out of the city and live in the surrounding area, embracing agriculture and nature and developing a love of beauty and artistic pursuits from it; think something like a mix between tolkein's hobbits and elves. The Faestir stay in the city, develop the notion of nobility from blood-relationship with the Vaess, and take on their distinct urban british atmosphere. The two groups maintain a strong relationship but remain ethnically distinct from each other.

I really don't like this. It's giving everyone "high elf disorder", where you have this supposedly accomplished civilization that doesn't actually do anything. That's not interesting at all!
No. 2990 ID: 43d730

>High elf disorder
Well, they're busy suppressing draconic artifacts and cults...
More contact with the goblins? They'd have the most fingers in movement of goods, allowing for easier tracking of artifacts. And those legs would be good in the rigging and for ship-to-ship combat...
Faestir pirates. Not nearly as much as the goblins, since they have the sea-going hat, but enough to be interesting.
No. 2991 ID: 0290e8

>Ah, you had not stated it so explicitly in earlier posts. Nevertheless, my opinion on it, and my own suggestions, remain unchanged. Your suggestions fly in the face of basic sociology, and clash with the image of the Faestir that we have thus far been working with. While it is possible that some group with the beliefs akin to those you call the Reistir may indeed exist (at the GM's discretion), it is not something that the culture as a whole supports or endorses.
I would also note that you still ignore all events after the fall of Opossokarthel.

>High elf disorder
This is a valid point as it pertains to the Sidhe. I suggested some added content, but really, they lack a history altogether, and we should make one.
My points regarding the Faestir and the Goblins still stand; they do not, in fact, have particularly accomplished civilizations.

I'm thinking that there should be a considerable amount of Faestir fishing vessels. Piracy strikes me as something that would be considered quite uncouth. For that matter, all seafaring would likely be thought of as a poor profession, seeing as they presumably did not practice it in Opossokarthel. While fishing still occurs, due to necessity, longer ranging journeys such as piracy and trade are likely frowned upon. I see great fishing ships, going rather far out and quit possibly spending a significant amount of time, but no seagoing on a level which is directly econopolitically relevant.
No. 2992 ID: b39322


Well, maybe they're not very accomplished. But still, they're alive. If you're alive, you're doing something, striving for something. Even by just existing, a species should be producing heroes and villains and leaders and outlaws and political movements and antagonisms and... so on. SOMEthing.

If they weren't accomplishing anything, then... what? Here is a species who was created by a super-sorcerer who then became a god. They went and lived in a city on top of a giant water organ where it rains forever.

They faffed about for a while.

Then there was a war and they were kicked out, so now they're living in some caves.

What's the point of that??
No. 2993 ID: b39322


I should probably clarify here, too.

Creating a player-character race, the first thing you want before anything else is to make players want to play a character of that species. And for that, a species needs... well, life, I suppose you'd call it. You need something the player can look at as an example of the kind of adventure these people have. The player is going to want their character to DO something, and so you need to show what sort of thing can be done. It's good to have an origin, a culture, an atmosphere, but what you really need is a history.

You look at dwarves - everyone knows a few good dwarves, what kind of things they've done, the Gimlis and the Beardbeards. Sergals? The average tgchan-goer will think of Rain, or perhaps Goshen or even John. Not only them, but the things they did.

What I'm getting at, basically, is that a player should be able to look at a race and think "Yes! I want a piece of that action!"

But for that you need to actually have some action, and there's not enough of that with some of the species we have. The Faestir have, what... one war? That they lost? Come on. If they like their warrior ideals so much they should have had at least a small empire at some point. A few campaigns? Maybe they had an ally that they helped out? Something.

They need to have a story behind them, not just a list of facts.
No. 2994 ID: 43d730

Three archetypes to try on for size:
The collector and sage of draconic artifacts. Perhaps he studies to cease the horror of another Age of Scale, perhaps he dismisses the danger of the erstwhile masters of the world; they fell to spite and internal strife, a few thousand years ago. In any case, he's handy with a glyphscriber, knows a few helpful majiks, and is willing to plumb the depths of the ruins, or chase halfway across the world on a dream. (Artificer, Wizard, Sorcerer even.)
The Last Dragon Knight. For either the glory of the fallen, the protection of his people, or revenge, he carries the banner of a dead order, wandering for word of threats with wings, scales, and fire. Most never see him coming.
The Seeker. Life in Bejwaere can get constrictive, you know? Elders nattering on about 'Racial Duty' and 'Blood of Bahamut' and 'The Kobold Menace' and all that jazz. Screw them. They just want you to think like them and not try new stuff. So you legged it. You've got your cache of things, and the goblins were nice enough to drop you off in a foreign port (assuming you didn't take the land route to Barthelmia). Now, world, let's see what you've got!

...You're right. They need more hats than 'Depressed Elder Race', 'Hate Race X', 'British', and 'Rare'.
No. 2995 ID: eb1b4b


Well, we can buff things out. Just look for some reasoning behind things and new stuff will grow naturally.

For example: A big part of the Faestir mythology is the Vaess and the reasons that Bahamut made the species, i.e. to be an army. So, not only should the Faestir have a military, they should have a very GOOD military. What do you need for an army? Food - that means either farms or trade. Equipment - that means mining, some way of getting leather, good craftspeople. And money. Where do they get money? Well, you have an army... And hey, if you've got the british angle, a lot of what makes the british british is the whole "Empire" thing. So if you give the Faestir a bit of an empire at some point that hits several birds with one stone. Or spear, perhaps. You can even tie it back to their origins by saying that, after the devastation of the draconians' fighting each other, the Faestir took it on themselves to go out and whip some semblance of order back into the place.

From that, then, you can go further and develop the reasons why the Faestir-Kobold thing really started. The Faestir are out laying down some civilization, they find the 'bolds, they start talking down to them all the time, poor primitive little native folk that they are. A few missteps and it's easy for the whole thing to spill out of hand, just like the british in RL had with their subjects.

Now, while they had an empire (not a big one, but widely spread) they would have needed good trade, so the goblins come into it - a nice bit of shared history, there. Some interactions with some of the other races, so you can reasonably have Faestir adventurers wandering all over the world. That, in fact, could be another whole hat for them to wear - they know a lot about other races, appreciate their strengths, can learn (somewhat antiquated versions of) their languages. And that, then, fits in with the old draconian-artifact-hunting thing. They're not populous, quite insular and often terribly formal but they're STILL more worldy than the majority of species, because they take it as a matter of pride that they were once all over the place. That's pretty neat.
No. 2996 ID: 1f9939

Really good idea on the Faestir Empire. We do have a big gap between the end of the Draconian Age and the Fall of Opossokarthel. http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Unified_Setting_History

It makes sense that during that time they aped their dead and/or insane Draconian masters and ruled Lindwurm. But they fell victim to one of the classic blunders, never underestimate a kobold who has been pushed too far.

As the Faestir tell it, Tiamat came out of nowhere with a kobold army and nearly genocided them. Did Tiamat or something claiming to be Tiamat make an appearance? Maybe. The kobolds have a fear of things draconic and it must have come from somewhere. But the Faestir might be downplaying the degree to which they got their asses handed to them by a bunch of simple but angry kobolds.
No. 2997 ID: eb1b4b


The Faestir Empire idea also presents the possibility of being where most races' ideas of military strategy and operation come from; much like how, in RL, a lot of historical armies basically stole all their ideas either from the romans or the chinese.

So maybe the humans, dwarves, goblins, sergals, etc. all developed the beginnings of their own organized military from observation/records of the Faestir, who would have been running around trying to take care of all the leftover draconian mess - maddened servitor races, magical fallout monsters, experiments gone wild, etc - during those species' early development.
No. 2998 ID: edfbb3

Hmm, yes. They were likely allies to the Goblins, since much of this era took place prior to the Great Fuckup. When the goblin nation lost significance, the kobolds were emboldened and this allowed the rise of Tiamat. It ties things in even more strongly to that turning point, and it supports the idea of cause and effect.

What of the actual rule? I'm sure the Faestir ruled over all of Lindwurm, though they may have ruled in name only in most places. Indeed, I imagine that subject nations were required to endure only a small yearly tribute, a Faestir magistrate (and family) and perhaps a few pet laws that the magistrate felt moved to enforce.
Now, an empire that held sway wholly over a land-locked area wouldn't really forge the close working bond with the goblins that we want to insinuate. Where else should there be Faestir territories? I'm thinking Everoc for sure. You guys?
No. 2999 ID: eb1b4b


There was probably, at the least, a sizable expedition to every large landmass. In the early years the Faestir would have been the only people able and willing to mount big organized efforts like that. That'd mean at least one sizeable settlement on every coast that faced towards Lindwurm, but they probably wouldn't have tried much more than that on Londerfell, keeping maybe one or two small outposts just to keep contact with the elves. Vilous wouldn't have held much interest for them, but they'd have stuck around long enough to take care of any big problems left over from the draconians. They'd have had a lot of interests in Everoc, with a few nascent colony-nations and some tributary states with the dwarves, goblins, humans and kobolds but probably not corgryn. This would last until the Gentry started paying attention and the Faestir got tired of the general weirdness of the place, at which point they would have gone home and left some handy infrastructure behind. Solaris would be the most extensive and long-lived extension of the empire; Furnshakt may have been the only portion they didn't control at some point, explaining the difference in lifestyle between them and the rest of the continent. The military emphasis of the Faestir's expeditions could easily inspire the beginnings of a feudal state, despite them not having one themselves.

They wouldn't have been populous enough to create big nations for themselves: they'd have gone in, sorted out any big monsters and magic left over from the draconians, bashed the idea of civilization into the heads of whatever locals were there until it either sunk in or they got tired, and then left it as a tributary or protectorate.
No. 3000 ID: 1f9939

Not sure how far abroad the Faestir Empire would have expanded, but that would explain how kobolds got to Everoc. There are thriving kamps there to this day, and since the kobolds never mastered boats that's a bit of a head scratcher.
No. 3002 ID: edfbb3

But that only works if the Faestir kept kobold slaves. I'm thinking that's a place we don't want to go.

I'm liking your thinking here.
No. 3003 ID: eb1b4b


"Oh, they're not -slaves-, Reis forbid! We brought them into our service, that's all, and of course they wanted any part of our lifestyle they could get. They get to wear nice clothes and eat good food, have a roof to sleep under and most of all they get educated. It's so much better than what they had before, the poor little things. We're doing them a favour, really."
No. 3004 ID: eb1b4b
File 125967166693.jpg - (371.60KB , 700x671 , airships.jpg )


On the subject of servants... I had the idea that maybe, while crusading around clearing up after their creators, the Faestir might have rescued some of the less dangerous of the draconians' other servant races. Being "cousins", the Faestir might have adopted them into their own society. Obviously there'd be none of them around in the current time period, but it adds a bit of cultural diversity to the Faestir at the height of their power, as a global power should have.

Perhaps the elves also did some expanding during this time period? They'd be the only full equals to the Faestir in that era, so it'd add a bit of colour and conflict to the place if they butted heads a little.

... I wonder if the Faestir had any lost draconian "technology" at that point. It's not really the dracs' style, I suppose, but some of them might have had something approximating magitech. If so, the Vaess (as Bahamut's army) would have been taught to make draconian superweaponry and siege devices that could have been repurposed for other things. And if only the "true" Vaess could make them, for reasons of magicalness or whatever, that would explain why such things aren't around any more. How do you feel about... airships?

On the other hand, thus far the Faestir Empire has a nice vibe of being... well, "normal". If the only real magical advantage they have is the Vaess, who are few in number, then they've mostly carved out an empire by simply Being Good At It, which is rather impressive in a fantasy setting.
No. 3006 ID: b12bc5

>Other servant races
Pretty sure there really weren't any. Except perhaps the boldlings.

The elves may or may not have been equivalent to the Faestir, but remember that this was the age of the Goblins. Any expansion to the barbaric lands would be limited by goblin tolerance. Ithis is likely when the incursions into Vilous were made (which were later destroyed by Rain) but I doubt a whole lot happened. After all, the goblins are unlikely to make significant distinction between the Grey Elves and the Black Elves, and the latter were engaging in wanton acts of piracy during this period. This was prior to the goblin's delving into piracy, but not prior to their rise as a naval power, so most goblins were likely not too fond of the elven kind.

They undoubtedly had some, but not in sufficient amounts to really matter much. I'm agreeing with the emphasis on normalcy here.
No. 3009 ID: 43d730

Well, I had an idea in the shower...
We could give them the magic hat. I think the only other casters we have are the Sidhe, and that's just so they can be better than everyone at everything. The Faestir have a decent line back to the greatest magicians the world has known, the largest stockpile of magic items, and patchwork knowledge of the ruins and their purpose.
The Toltecatl might have incredible knowledge from their libraries, but that does nothing but macguffin if they don't use it. The Wila actively reject their heritage. The goblins do the same. There isn't really a dedicated arcane sciences school anywhere in the human fluff. The dorfs would probably rather eat their own beards than mess about with something as inconstant as magic. The corgryn see far too much magic on a day-to-day basis to like it.
I agree that magic should be dangerous stuff, hard to learn and harder to use effectively.
But this might be the way to go.
Also, it gives little Timmy, who has a gimp leg and 8 CON from pneumonia, something to do inside.
No. 3010 ID: 1f9939

Magic hasn't been sketched out, except for a general consensus that it is low magic. (Spells capped at 4th level was one suggestion.) The Faestir definitely cleaned up the wreckage of their former masters (a task that continues to this day, and they aren't too thrilled with Barthelmian ruin-hunters) but they also have history from the end of the Draconian Age. All of those tales are horrific and make the idea of actually using those little-understood devices abhorrent.

Still, they were knocked to the brink of extinction during Tiamat's Wrath, and despite their low population and small holdings they endure to this day. It makes sense that they have an edge, but not one they want to flash around. If the rest of the world knew what was in their vaults? It would mean a war that would make the Silvoran Conflicts look like a picnic.
No. 3011 ID: eb1b4b


Well, again, we return to their origins for guidence on the whole magic question. The Faestir were made by Bahamut to be his servants: the normal ones as mooks (really good mooks, though!) and the Vaess as elites. So.. would they have been made to be able to use magic?

Certainly, Bahamut would have wanted them to be able to grasp a bit of it - enough for them to have the same capacity for wizardry and suchlike as the other races - but I don't think he would have permitted them anything special of that sort. What he would have done was give them inherent magic: innate resistances and strengths, a few special abilities, but mostly that would be passive, constant effects (and probably limited to the Vaess, for the most part). The furthest they could get beyond that is excercise and discipline, training up their natural advantages the same way a martial artist enhances the use of the limbs, motions, awareness, etc. that everyone already has. If this line is followed, then Faestir magic already exists as the Vaess "class": the last of the true Vaess taught a faestir warrior to train themselves up and achieve a level of power close to his own.

Think of it like... Exalted, if you're familiar with the game. If the draconians were First Age Solars, then the Vaess were like high-bred Terrestrials, and normal Faestir are like half-caste Terrestrials. Without putting in any special effort, they're basically just mortals with a little extra strength, but if they do some hard training and study they can maybe achieve a fraction of real power.

Still, it's not like magic learned out of a book, more like releasing dormant abilities.
No. 3012 ID: 8a8213

>I think the only other casters we have are the Sidhe
Everybody has a few hedge wizards wise women. Adepts, in d20. Beyond that, we toyed with the idea of the communists having sorcerers,
The Sidhe don't have casters in the traditional sense, though, they have lifeshapers, which may or may not be inherently magical. We haven't seemed to arrive at a consensus yet there. They don't have any particular magic groups though. Their attitude towards magic is, at least overtly, somewhat exclusionist, iirc. We can tamper with that if we want, the specifics of the whole elf division was something I extrapolated from suggestions over the course of like, half an hour. As such, hardly set in stone. But we can't make Sidhe overtly magical; if they had an approach like that they would have just joined the Caele. The Sidhe are the sticks in the mud that basically said "We'll do what we've been doing, but better" though. And that's something that does have the weight of prior consensus behind it.

I'm thinking a large part of why they didn't die out after the fall of Opossokarthel was people from conquered territories returning to the homeland. This is something we could fluff up more. They don't need a hell of an edge just to avoid being completely wiped out as a species, though.

>The Faestir were made by Bahamut to be his servants: the normal ones as mooks
um, no. Bahamut made Reis, for no recorded reason. Leviathan impregnated Reis with the rest of the Faestir. Again, no concrete reason is documented. It could have been a romantic fling, but pity is implied by the other interactions between Leviathan and the Faestir.
Taking this into account, I will respond to your magic suggestions as though they were addressed only to groups for which they are relevant.

>So.. would they have been made to be able to use magic?
Reis was certainly made as a normal creature with a soul, and should have interacted with magic at a capacity comparable to that of other (non-draconian) races.

>Certainly, Bahamut would have wanted them to be able to grasp a bit of it - enough for them to have the same capacity for wizardry and suchlike as the other races
Indeed, the Vaess uth Bahamut would inherit this from Reis, as she was their template.

>but I don't think he would have permitted them anything special of that sort.
Indeed, such thing seem tangential to their intended purpose.

I concur with your assessments as to the nature of the Vaess' power. We should examine such things primarily as they pertain to a potential Vaess-trained prestige class.
No. 3013 ID: ef9a6f

>Bahamut made Reis, for no recorded reason. Leviathan impregnated Reis with the rest of the Faestir.

You know... I think there's some sort of plot seed buried there. If the faestir are all culturally obsessed with their Vaess heritage, then they've been ignoring another possible source of power for some time. Leviathan is Leviathan, of course, a lot of magical heritage there, and Reis had to have some serious mojo to have 9000+ babies. With no reason to limit her, Bahamut probably would have added lots of optional extras to her, just for the sake of having pride in his own creation.

So what if faestir could awaken that dormant heritage in themselves, too, and just never have? Or forgot, when the Vaess came in and their magic was so much more useful for the world they were in at the time?

It wouldn't be exactly like any other spellcasting class, so we'd have to make a new one. Something sort of water-elemental, white-mage theme, maybe with some lifewarping. What do you think? A lot of fantasy settings' magic is all "rediscover the lost arts of the golden age" sort of thing, so I think it'd be interesting to offer a field in which the PCs can be pioneers.
No. 3014 ID: ef9a6f


Plus, this could offer a potential salvation for the race, to ease up that atmosphere of total doom they have. Rediscover the latent powers of Reis and Leviathan, the Gift of Reis returns and the faestir become super-fertile again.

As for what they do... Well, to borrow ideas from Avatar, I'd see them as having a little waterbending thing going. They'd start off with limited abilities, like manipulating the water content in their own bodies to close wounds, flush out diseases and poisons and suchlike. Then it'd move up, so they could do the same with other creatures they touch, and learn techniques like increasing blood flow/releasing hormones to enhance strength and agility and so forth. From there, you move away from the vaguely scientific justification and do something more magical, bringing out the "holy" energy - I see this less as a moral "good aligned" thing and more similar to, say, the power of the Waaagh, distant though the faestir and orks may be from each other (but both british?). Basically, drawing on the latent magic in the whole species to channel a half-psychic, half-PURE ENERGY sort of power. It'd start off with "aquakenisis" (move water with your mind) and maybe, at the very uttermost height, allow a very basic energy blast sort of thing.

It'd be a very pacifist sort of spellcasting class, concentrating on healing and enhancement, maybe a little psychic-style stuff at very high level, and most "damage" spells being nonlethal. Even the PURE ENERGY thing, being psychic, would have some limitation, like only affecting creatures that intended harm on a member of the Faestir species.
No. 3015 ID: 43d730

I'm pretty sure the Draconians had a better range of items than "Blows up the world", "Destroys Gem", and "Lights up when you say the word."
I can see the Faestir locking up, say, the Betrayal of Flesh, the Mindbender, and the dreaded Voidstar... but probably not the low-level stuff, since there's no way to regulate what comes out of the ruins anyway. Light Lances, Firebreakers, Powder of Night, etc.

As to the school of magic thing, it gives an opportunity to make Hogwarts jokes.
Seriously, though. Most of those ruins aren't going to be stuffed full of magic firepower, but will have piles upon piles of informative glyphs and frescoes. The ones that haven't been covered in 'BOLDS RULEZ' and 'JFMBILIS IS A NOSE-RUBBER' graffiti, that is.
No. 3017 ID: 2c99d0
File 125977188488.jpg - (89.28KB , 1130x785 , SaveTheWorldButton.jpg )


I'd imagine pic is related for most draconian artifacts after their downfall.
No. 3018 ID: 2c99d0


Oh, they had lots of stuff to be sure, the entire gamut from convenient to indispensable, but would they have made them in way that it was at all easy for these muck-scrabbling lesser races to possibly use them? Most artifacts probably required a level of education in their use that was basic for draconians but out of the reach of other people.

Consider a car. For people in a first world country like america, pretty much everyone learns to use them, and almost every adult has one available: not only that, but once you've learned to drive a car, you can drive most any kind of car, and can probably figure out how to drive a truck or a bus or similar vehicles if you need to. And if it breaks down, most people of reasonable intelligence will know the most common problems and how to fix them, and what fuel the engine takes. If you took an ancient roman or a mongol hordesman, though, then even if you gave them a list of instructions it'd be even chances whether they could get the thing going or not. Then, if they did, they'd drive over glass, fill the petrol tank with diesel, and most likely crash through someone's house before they could get where they wanted to go.

The Vaess, as soldiers, would have been taught how to use and maintain weapons and likely vehicles as well, but they'd have no idea how much of anything else worked or how to tell, if they weren't already familiar with it, whether something was dangerous or not at all. Or perhaps almost all draconian artifacts are dangerous to some extent, if you're uneducated, just like how you or I can get an electric shock and be killed by something as innocuous as, say, a toaster.
No. 3019 ID: 43d730

Hence the mixed reactions on their use.
After a few trials and errors, they should be able to figure most things out, using nearly-unbroken knowledge of Old Draconic and some idea of how the rest of the stuff works.
Also, that still allows the minor stuff and weapons, which is what the players will be interested in anyway.

This kind of relates back to the lifewarping styles thing I was mentioning earlier, in that most of the artifacts the draconians made would run on somewhat similar principles and look related.
The artifacts the Caele have, for example, would probably be of all-crystal and metal tracery construction and be covered in elfscript.
Sidhe stuff usually incorporates a small piece of living material, a few hardy leaves or twigs in a decorative location; lower-quality stuff would have mere patterns.
And so on.
No. 3020 ID: 43d730

That is to say, even fragmentary knowledge of how this sort of thing works puts them on higher ground than complete ignorance.
Like not saying anything about the Fey anywhere near the really powerful late-period stuff, or poking exposed eyes, or forgetting to feed it.

That said, what should the design guidelines be for draconic stuff? They were premier lifewarpers... Soul-Edge-style eyes and meat? Scaly exteriors and warmness? Ordinary materials, just made in disturbingly organic shapes?
No. 3021 ID: d05bf5


I'd say draconian stuff runs through most possibilities! Remember that at the height of the species' power, individual draconians were powerful and long-lived enough to pursue whole branches of magic all by themselves. Lifewarping is, of course, something they were good at, but there would also have been draconians who made living spells, energy-constructs, magic crystals, steampunk magitech, cyberpunk magitech, rings to Rule Them All... whatever you can imagine. Most likely all the best stuff was custom-made with arcane secrets that the inventor (or a team of creators) hogged for themselves.

There probably would have been a "common" style for everyday things that every draconian had and which they couldn't be bothered to make themselves, but even these likely varied from production centre to production centre, as the draconians would have been arrogant enough to distinctly personalize everything. For example, one city might have all its amenities powered by elementals bound in batteries in a network under the streets, while another might have had a miniature sun contained within a set of rotating rings hovering above the top of the tallest central tower. Thus, although they achieved the same ends, the kind of energy going through them and the way everything worked would be different.

I think the idea is to make the current time period seem especially low magic by having the ridiculously high magic of the draconians in comparison. So, draconian "low magic" artifacts should be kept to a minimum, just so that those artifacts that do turn up will be the very impressive ones.

It's not hard to imagine, in any case, that the draconians' low-magic items would have just fallen apart a few centuries after the races' fall, just because they were made to be cheap and disposable and easily replaced. The Vaess wouldn't have been able to make more not because they didn't know how, but because the infrastructure to support such production didn't exist any more.
No. 3022 ID: 43d730

But then there's the problem of any magic being too much.
I think they need to keep some secrets of construction for the cheap stuff or the cheap stuff needs more durability, so that low-level ruin hunting is actually feasible. Not every delve should come back with boring-ass rubbings and a few more scrolls of Old Draconic, the party will eventually want straight-up loot.
I'm thinking the military-built stuff for the Gentry Wars would last a while...

Wait. Wouldn't the Faestir have participated in that? Alongside the funky stuff like Siege Beetles, Arcanotech Eraser Drones, and Axiom Cannons, of course. Does that suggest contact with the Corgryn at any point?

...And shouldn't Lindwurm be a lot weirder, if the Draconians were Do-Everything-Casters?
No. 3024 ID: d05bf5


It's not that there shouldn't be magic, or even powerful magic, it's just that draconian magic in particular should have a sufficient weight to it that as soon as the players hear "draconian artifact" they should be thinking OH SHIT and trying to gather an army to fight the giant iron dragon-golem that's woken up out of the depths of an inland sea. Or whatever the case may be.

Perhaps sophistication should be key, rather than just power. A modern wizard wants to cut things, he makes an enchanted sword; a draconian, for the same thing, made a lightsabre. Fighting undead? Clerics throw bottles of holy water; draconians built a plant/crystal cannon that collects sunlight into a sustained, sweeping energy beam. Even relatively minor artifacts should be very stylish (for example: a gauntlet of imperishable pearlescent plates with a large inset gem, which can generate and display a miniature image of the surrounding area). Basically, if the players do get their hands on an object made by the draconians, it shouldn't be something so mundane that it could be referred to simply as "loot". Unique effects, rather than something like dice or damage enhancement.

I don't think the Vaess would have met Corgryn. Weren't the Corgryn made to be the Gentry's pets? They wouldn't have been used to fight. I'm not sure if the timeline's right for Bahamut to have made them yet, either.
No. 3026 ID: 43d730

And I'm saying there should be benefits other than monetary for plumbing the ruins of Lindwurm. Who pays for shards of pottery and broken machinery? Who buys near-indecipherable slabs of crystal? Who braves deathtraps and monstrosities for a pittance? There must be something, or at least a history of something, immediately powerful in those ruins.
Not so much that governments are rushing to possess it, but enough that a single individual or a group could pave their way to power.
I do like the individualistic nature of items idea, though. Each ruin might have radically different things, from weapons that break time to function to free-air barnacles that grow on the skin and eat light, to spirit golems made from souls that force themselves upon unwitting hosts and drive out the original soul.

The divide, I think, would occur at items for servitors. Sure, the arcane scientists at the top of the heap might have custom-crafted walking cities made from mountains and spiders (that's another thing on style; Would the Draconians have much to do with fuzzy concepts? I can see them as a sort of logic-based empiricistic culture, to counteract the Gentry's complete dominance of thoughts, emotions, and perception) but the average driblis would probably have no more than a glowing rock that functioned as a timepiece and maybe a stun rod if he was paranoid or rich.

That's another thing. We know the Kobolds stay the fuck away from the ruins due to Tiamat and the war, but do they have their own caches of 'safe' trinkets? The glowy-rock-of-brightening-and-darkening-at-set-intervals that stays on the altar at the center of kamp and is pleaded to for success at foraging?
No. 3027 ID: 552969

>But then there's the problem of any magic being too much.
Most of this stuff will be destroyed or locked up in Faestir vaults.
>I think they need to keep some secrets of construction for the cheap stuff or the cheap stuff needs more durability, so that low-level ruin hunting is actually feasible.
I agree.
>Not every delve should come back with boring-ass rubbings and a few more scrolls of Old Draconic, the party will eventually want straight-up loot.
It's quite possible that the Faestir or Sidhe will be willing to grant unusual things for this knowledge like that. The Toltecatl are liable to pay for such information in other information, and as such will be a very useful resource to any adventurers who need knowledge but have the time to travel to Rs. Thus such things, when done well, can make for very interesting stories.
>I'm thinking the military-built stuff for the Gentry Wars would last a while...
Probably all military stuff would.
>Wait. Wouldn't the Faestir have participated in that?
No. The Faestir were created during the period in which the Draconians warred with each other, which was after the Fey got bored of war.

>...And shouldn't Lindwurm be a lot weirder, if the Draconians were Do-Everything-Casters?
Well, they mostly lived on the eastern half, and a lot of their shit was destroyed. But yes, there should be crazy crap there. That's the main reason the area's not settled at all, I believe. We haven't done a whole lot by way of fluffing things up there, is all.
No. 3028 ID: d05bf5


Since we've tossed out the ethnic-divide idea, maybe these people would be called Reistir? Or Leviatir or whathaveyou. I'll call them Reistir for now.

I like the idea, but how to implement it? There are a couple of options.
1) Divine PrC for clerics of Reis or Leviathan. Don't really like it myself, but it's simple.
2) New base class: sorceror-based. A spell list from which each individual Reistir pick a small selection of spells known. Also a few class abilities available to all. Again, simple, but not to my taste. Too caster-y.
3) Warlock-based. No eldritch blast, but extra invocations, new ones, created to follow the white magic/water theme. Feels appropriate, and potentially interesting.
4) Psion-based. Power points, power list with appropriate powers. Some spells will need to be converted to powers to give the class its proper flavour.
5) New system. Perhaps something halfway between cleric and warlock - all Reistir know the spell-like abilities that they're capable of, but only a small number are selected to be available at any time, and using any of the others requires a pause to meditate and call them up? Or something else. More work with this option.
No. 3029 ID: 552969

It's worth noting that an iron golem would likely be heavily rusted.

Also worth noting that Draconian artifacts are the primary source of any magic items, fluff-wise.
No. 3030 ID: d05bf5


I like the idea of a twist on the warlock class best, I must say. Instead of Eldritch Blast, start them off with a Water Blast (nonlethal damage, doesn't work without a source of water but you can usually just take it from the atmosphere) and then upgrade at high level so they can switch it with a White Blast (note: think of better name) that does psionic damage to enemies of Reis' children. Not as powerful or useful as Eldritch Blast, so give them an extra Invocation known to compensate. Invocations should be pretty easy to think up, though I'm not very good at balancing myself.

... Maybe Tiamat has her own version of these, that are traditional warlocks.
No. 3033 ID: 43d730

I was thinking a kind of monk/warlock hybrid.
Make all of the invocations static abilities (Need to drink less water, sense nearby water(upgrades to finding living creatures), better unarmed damage from disrupting the opponent's flow, a swim speed, walking on water, move earth as long as it's wet, cleanse water in their blood and the blood of others, etc.

Have a few prestige classes to change things around a little on the end; one hardline group that takes Leviathan's Gift from others leaving them withered husks, one based around sealing wounds and healing, one that creates ice in the harsh Lindwurm deserts...
No. 3034 ID: 552969

I'm thinking these followers of Leviathan/Reis should be a cleric prestige class. Nothing else makes sense from a fluff point of view.
No. 3035 ID: d05bf5


The trouble is that cleric is very much casting, with miracles handed down by a god for their followers to use which are then employed as spells; whereas what we've got, instead, is some people who are realizing a touch of divinity in themselves. Further complicating it is that it's not just divinity: they also have a bit of whatever draconian mumbojumbo powers Bahamut gave Reis when he made her, combined with that.

The mechanics of the cleric class just don't feel quite right for this, and fluffwise there isn't technically any need for them to worship Reis or Leviathan; they could discover it or have it awakened in them another way, such as exposure to a particular artifact, or tasting Leviathan's blood, or something. So really it'd be more like a divine sorcerer or warlock.
No. 3036 ID: 43d730

...Cancel earlier comment.
Just make them monks. The speedy, acrobatic warrior style fits Faestir well, the abilities can be refluffed to run off water, and it has Heal, Knowledge: Religion, and Swim.

Racial Substitution levels.
Replace Slow Fall with a swim speed.
Improve and move Wholeness of Body down a few levels, reducing ???.
Maybe give them Leap Attack or Flying Kick for free?
No. 3038 ID: d05bf5


Faestir already have a fighting/magic hybrid sort of class in the Vaess PrC. I think these guys should be more magic and less fighting.

Plus, with the Sweepers, the three classes would complete the fantasy triumvirate of fighty, sneaky, casty.
No. 3039 ID: 43d730

Semi-unrelated to the current conversation...

Favored of Leviathan
-Faestir, Swim 2 ranks
>Water is life.
You get a +2 Divine bonus on swim checks and saves against effects involving water. You get a +4 competence bonus on checks to avoid drowning, survival checks to find water, and on survival checks to predict the weather. You may not take any other 'Favored' feats.

Leviathan's Road
-Faestir, Favored of Leviathan, Swim 6 ranks
>Though the sun beat down and the ground cracks, there is yet water.
You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed. You may cast Create Water as a cleric of your level three times a day.

Favored of Reis
-Faestir, Heal 2 ranks
>Life is the world.
You heal twice the norm when resting. You get a +2 Divine bonus on heal checks and saves against poison and disease. You may automatically detect poison in living creatures, but not the type or strength. You may not take any other 'Favored' feats.

Reis' Touch
-Faestir, Favored of Reis, Heal 6 ranks
>Though the breath doth still, and the heart doth weaken, there is yet life.
You no longer have to roll for stabilising the wounded, and can do so as a move action rather than as a standard action. Whenever you use magic to heal, a single target gains Fast Healing 2 for one round per level of the spell or ability.

Favored of Bahamut
-Faestir, Knowledge: Arcana 2 ranks
>The world is my kingdom; I shall strive to be a just king.
Abjuration and Transmutation effects that originate with you are treated as one level higher. You get a +4 bonus on Knowledge: Arcana checks on the subject of draconian creations. You may not take any other 'Favored' feats.

Sovereignty of Bahamut
-Faestir, Favored of Bahamut, Knowledge: Arcana 6 ranks
>A wise king corrects not with force, but with mercy.
You may Turn creatures affected by draconian lifewarping, or rebuke creatures affected by Bahamut's lifewarping. Double the effective HD of intelligent creatures targeted by either ability. You have a pool of uses equal to 3+your charisma modifier. If you have the Leadership feat, you get a +1 bonus to your leadership score.

Favored of Tiamat
-Faestir or Kobold, Intimidate 2 ranks
>Power is the only virtue.
Evocation and Enchantment effects that originate with you are treated as one level higher. Five times per day, you may take a swift action to grant yourself a +1 divine bonus on an attack or damage roll. You may not take any other 'Favored' feats.

Tiamat's Force
-Faestir or Kobold, Intimidate 6 ranks.
>Weakness is a sin, one easily purged.
Your Favored of Tiamat granted ability improves. Five times per day, you may do one of the following: (Increase the DC of a Compulsion effect you generate by +2. Grant yourself a +2 bonus on a single attack and damage roll. Add +1d6 Divine damage to an evocation effect that you generate. Grant yourself a +4 bonus to an Intimidate check. Add +1d6 to the damage or +1 to the ability damage of a necromancy effect you generate. )If you have the leadership feat, you do not suffer the leadership penalty for being Cruel.

I'm thinking they also come with a permanent mark, which gets more elaborate as more feats get added on.
No. 3040 ID: 552969

I like them. I think we ought to make some for beings worshiped by other races, too. Problem is, other races' deities are less concrete, not being historical entities. Thoughts?
No. 3041 ID: 43d730

Then just base them on the religions, not the deities.

Aurel's Favor (Favor)
-Knowledge: Religion 4 ranks
>All things come from the light of the sun.
As an especially devout Creedsman, your faith supports you in times of travail. You get a +2 Divine bonus on saves versus fear, death effects, and negative energy. If you have the capacity to Smite, then as long as you hold a weapon you could smite with, it is limned in radiance, casting light out to five feet. (If you are an Aurelian Creedsman, then five tiny lights circle the head of the weapon. If Gorgossan, there are six tiny lights.)

Aurel's Valor
>Even in the darkest night, there is light to be found.
-Aurel's Favor, Knowledge: Religion 9 ranks
Double the bonuses from the Aurel's Favor feat. You may make a Smite attack once per day against the enemies of the faith, but only with a mace. Add your level to the damage and your charisma bonus to the attack roll.

(Note that these are special feats: The vast majority of worshipers don't have the deep faith needed to unlock this potential. The abilities granted should be considered a minor miracle.)

Separately, Faestir and cliff-diving.
No. 3042 ID: 1f9939

>>Also worth noting that Draconian artifacts are the primary source of any magic items, fluff-wise.

Not entirely. When we were discussing the gunpowder option it was decided that guns could not be enchanted. That implies that other things could be.

Admittedly that was just a fluff option, but I can't see a complete absence of magical swords and what not. They probably aren't common, but a complete absence would seem jarring and raises questions as to why not.

The difference is that draconic artifacts are almost always MacGuffins. Even if they aren't more powerful they are rarer and more stylish than anything currently made, making them much more valuable.

I like where the Faestir prestige classes are going, but think it should probably be kept to subtler abilities (superleap, healing) instead of exotic effects like water blasts. It just seems to fit more with the reserved British thing they have going on.

To put it in steampunk terms: Sherlock Holmes using baritsu to take out a dozen henchmen shows that he is a skilled gentleman. An exotic blast is more like hauling out a revolver and shooting things. It's a bit gauche and lacks elegance.
No. 3043 ID: 1f9939

>>And I'm saying there should be benefits other than monetary for plumbing the ruins of Lindwurm. Who pays for shards of pottery and broken machinery? Who buys near-indecipherable slabs of crystal? Who braves deathtraps and monstrosities for a pittance? There must be something, or at least a history of something, immediately powerful in those ruins.

Yes and no. There is always the chance for a big score, but strange trinkets are a ruin-hunters bread and butter. Private collections and museums show that there is an insatiable demand for ancient artifacts and the Unified Setting won't be any different.

The big scores however is what they all dream of and enough turn up that there are always new fortune hunters to replace the dead ones. I imagine that some of the major powers have a few powerful artifacts salted away, just in case. Whether they know how to use them is another matter, but they pay for them. And try to steal them from each other.

And then there are the underground draconian cultists who would just love to own an artifact from their ancient gods. Especially a really powerful one they could use to overthrow all those other religions with their false gods.
No. 3044 ID: 552969

Seems overly light-oriented to me. Remember that Darkness is one of the five faces of God that the Creedsmen worship. Perhaps there should be a different feats for each face?
No. 3045 ID: d05bf5


A revolver, yes... but a rifle, now, that's appropriate. Refine it a little and it becomes better.

In any case, the fluff for them thus far suggests these guys are something new, something the faestir as a race aren't quite prepared for. It should have a little sense of not fitting in. Maybe its users get a little embarrassed about it. With the whole life/water theme, the lifewarping powers at high level, perhaps there's a sort of changing, evolution thing going on. Maybe it's time for the faestir to accept their loss, let go, and start becoming something else.

Plot hooks!
No. 3046 ID: 3b3e11


>Weren't the Corgryn made to be the Gentry's pets? They wouldn't have been used to fight.

The whole point of the Corgyn being made was that the Gentry created them specifically to fight in the war with the Draconics. It was a gesture of contempt, showing that the Gentry didn't take the war seriously in any way. Of course, it was very serious for the Corgyn that were slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands on the battlefield, following the insane orders of their inscrutable commanders.

I seem to remember that the Faestir were created in response to the Corgyn according to our old fluff. I suggest adjusting the timeline accordingly.
No. 3047 ID: 3b3e11


Perhaps there should be a zone of high magical saturation in Lindwurm where the Draconian capital was? When the Circle collapsed, all those minor and major enchancements, artifacts, spells and constructs could have been affected in unpredictable ways. I'm thinking old security systems mutating into something akin to STALKER anomalies, ancient drones with corrupted programming roaming the corridors, semi-sentient magic spells infesting the air and the land... It wouldn't be a lifewarped zone like the Water Forest or a completely reality-bending area like the Gentry's former palaces, but it would have enough hazards and dangers that no looters would have reached the center in all the years of its existence.
No. 3050 ID: 43d730

But what to call it... The Hole? The White City? Oh God, What The Fuck Is That-Arrrrghle-Bargle-Neigh? Uruk? Ur?
Basically, 'the Mournland the dungeon'.

An uneasy truce? "We know you're there, we don't quite have the records for why we should be shit-scared of you, but we're going with the records on this one and we'll leave you alone as long as you return the favor."

I didn't want to make six different 'Creedsman' feats. I figure they can focus things differently with other choices.
Separately, I think we can rework the cleric to run off either Church or Deity, going on domain choice and abilities.

That's what I was thinking, but more stuff needs to come out of the ruins than go in.
This is also an opportunity to put some NPCs in Barthelmia, power figures. Feeg the Brave, who stood down a massive mutated beast and won a suit of ancient armor; when the army came to break up the territory he made into a rough kingdom, it took five regiments and three squadrons of knights to kill him. Eyebite Sali, who succumbed to a trap but gained the power to freeze those who met her eyes in place; her death by exploding into a million snakes in the town square of Gloria is well-documented. Abram the Forge, whose mind was transferred to a massive golem made of red-hot steel. Both of his bodies are in the town hall at New Hope; despite the cries of many savants, none will allow the savior of the town to be broken up for study.

I suggest that the blast be invisible, then. Kind of a 'Point and concentrate and they seize up a bit' thing. Later on, it can cause headaches and nosebleeds from the internal damage.
No. 3051 ID: 43d730

And I just realised those examples are all dead.
Here are some active ones.

Ghalam-Kar, cast out from his Fort, became one of the premier ruinsackers of the modern era. That is, of course, before falling into some kind of ooze trap that led to his death and later rising as a sort of acidic revenant- no place within a few miles of that ruin is safe now, as the creature's knowledge of engineering and paranoia have salted the it with ingenious traps and pitfalls...

Habutai Ce'llyn was the leader of a Sidhe expedition searching for a ruin that proved that the Draconians were an escaped servitor race of the elves. However, as the other members of the expedition found, the stories of the ruin had been fabricated and Habutai was himself a crazed dracocultist. Over the bloodied corpses of his companions, Habutai began to enact upon a foolhardy series of lifewarping rituals he believed would make him a dragon. Now, no elf in the wilds of Barthelmia is safe from the insatiable cannibalistic hunger of this scaled monstrosity. The thing's dreams are troubled with a five-headed shadow...

Bombazine is one of the most hotly pursued criminals on the entire continent. A formerly innocent kobold, she was captured and kept as a pet by a sightseeing expedition of Solusan nobles. After ten years of abuse, neglect, and servitude, she went on a rampage that left the household dead, stole a ship, and now attempts to raise her brethren against the invaders while murdering port authorities and mayors alike. Truly, it is said, to beware the nice ones.

Sir Percale Kersymere has only recently come to the city of Gloria, but already his strict interpretation of the city's laws (I.E. Applying them)has put many notable figures on the shady side in the cells. So far, he's managed to avoid a knife in the back (and front, and both sides) through justified paranoia and luck. Raised to the rank of Knight from lowly beginnings in the King's Arms for unspecified services, his sharp mind and skill may finally be the match for at least gilding Gloria.

Tucuyo is something of an anomaly among the Tribes of Moon and Earth. Willing to learn from captured savants, he's managed to organise the toll-taking business to the point of renting office space in several taverns in his area. Contrary to the claims of those in the tribes and those without, his 'aping' conceals a deep hatred for the newcomers... He just hasn't found a price yet at which they'll stop paying for protection and allow his raiders kill them.

Raki Matiz is the undisputed champion of the judicial duel. At only six feet, his build is more dustback than true northerner, but the last person to publicly imply anything of the sort is now missing both his arms and one leg. The Steel Wind is known for ending fights with a precisely measured amount of brutality, and an unquenchable resolve to see a job done. Every month, a package is sent on a dorfen ship with a fair amount of his winnings, bound for his aging mother. No one has yet dared disrupt this shipment.

Rinzu Vigan has built an empire of crime in but a day, suddenly becoming the only game in town for the entirety of Valorous Keep. No one is quite sure how this exile of Zirnitraog managed things, but the certainty is that he's calling the shots now, and the Portmaster is on his side for (visibly, anyway) cleaning up the streets. Truly, this is a dark day for the city. He deals in antiquities and protection rackets, and is looking to expand...
No. 3052 ID: b9bb28

>I seem to remember that the Faestir were created in response to the Corgyn according to our old fluff. I suggest adjusting the timeline accordingly.

I believe that what you're thinking of is the implication that Reis was created sort of as a way of proving that Draconians could do anything the Gentry could. It was never implied that they were created to fight in that war, though.

I understood the entire draconian heartland to be like that. But there is no capital, each of the folks on the circle had there own city. Or so I understood it.


>I didn't want to make six different 'Creedsman' feats. I figure they can focus things differently with other choices.
I was thinking that they would actually be for the entities, thus the same feat would also be used by members of other theistic races.
>Separately, I think we can rework the cleric to run off either Church or Deity, going on domain choice and abilities.
I support this notion.
No. 3053 ID: 43d730

>Entity rather than church
I dunno if the same feat would work for such different deity-facets as the fairly tame Selene of Solaris and the decidedly more fierce Bloody She of Mensala.
I could see a kind of War-Sneak-Cast triad of feats for each of the major gods...
Wait, this is for less major deities anyway. Don't the High deities only pull small miracles, hunches and visions? So these are a more direct form of divine power anyway.
No. 3054 ID: 778e29


Part of such places' isolation could have been the Faestir. When they were still powerful, they would have had some ranger-esque group dedicated to keeping people out of dangerous draconian ruins (possibly allowing certain groups in to a few places by agreement, like trained expeditions funded by a major nation?), but now all they can do is metaphorically shake their fists at people.
No. 3055 ID: 43d730

Since we seem to have the focus on Lindwurm at the moment, I have a theory for the structure of the Men With No Name.
Anyone can, theoretically, become one. All you have to do is render justice, conceal your face, and accept no reward. If you are overly harsh, do this for misguided reasons, or otherwise break the code... You get unmasked by one of the real ones and are branded forever as a failure. Seeing as how the Men have, collectively or separately, defeated or brought to justice everything from rampaging Sandcastles to slave trader kings, there is serious power and weight behind the name.

I think the story itself gives them some power, honestly. The Man With No Name always wins, so the stories go, so the real Men must also win.

I rather like the idea of all of them stumbling onto the idea of the legend at the same time.
No. 3058 ID: 1f9939

Hmmm, you know there might be a link between the old Faestir protectors suggested in >>313054 and the Men With No Name. Both organizations are native to Lindwurm and are devoted to protecting the public. The Men are just a bit more active and have a broader definition of what constitutes a threat.
No. 3059 ID: cbc5b9


Nice fluff. Puts some names to the places.

>Feeg the Brave

The "Kingdom of Feeg" was destroyed, but the legend of the hero lives on. Feegian rebel groups, fighting to throw off the Solusian yoke, continue to plague Barthelmia. For every cell that is stamped out, two more seem to take its place, and emblems of the Brave keep appearing, painted on the Governor's palace walls every night...

>Rinzu Vigan

I get the feeling he might run a ruthless, cutthroat mercenary band. Sort of the Talon Corp. of the Unified Setting.


>Each of the Draconians had their own city

>But what to call it?

I propose The Eightfold Chasm. When the Circle was consumed, so were their cities, leaving a broken, twisted land behind.
No. 3060 ID: cbc5b9



Sorry, NINEFOLD. I really need to go back and reread all the fluff before commenting.
No. 3061 ID: 778e29


Well, Bahamut and Leviathan survived, so their cites could have done too. Oppos' may have been Leviathan's city, its depths still unexplored despite the faestir having lived there for centuries (or BECAUSE they lived there for centuries), while Bahamut, on attaining godhood, may have teleported his city to another dimension to serve as his home and as the afterlife of his faithful followers. I like the idea that draconian cities were so awesome that the last remaining one is literally a paradise in the religious sense.

Tiamat may have done something similar with her city, but she craaaazy, so it'd basically be a hell, with all but her most favoured (read: useful) worshipers being conscripted after death into being soul-batteries or something.
No. 3062 ID: 778e29
File 125989246979.jpg - (140.09KB , 800x600 , alexander.jpg )


... I know we want to move away from the Final Fantasy derivatives, but can Alexander be part of Bahamut's heaven-metropolis? He's a giant angel-city-golem that shoots Justice beams. It's pretty awesome.
No. 3063 ID: 43d730

Perhaps it is his city.
I mean, he must have had interests other than lifewarping, yes?

...And, of course, there's a beacon somewhere in the Ninefold Pit that will lead it back to this world... And the Bahamut-worshipers will meet their god. He might not be to their liking.

Bahamut + 4 other subsumed entities + Tiamat = 6.
Who were the other three?
Leviathan, that one in the Water Forest, and the maker of the Nidhogr?
Just checking.

I also felt like writing up Light Lances.
A slim golden rod five feet long, capped at one end with a blade and crystal arrangement. There is a subtle pattern of lines up and down the shaft, and the viridian crystal seems to sparkle and swirl in sunlight. The blade is marked with a seal of crossed horns and half-suns. Command words tend to be nonsense phrases in draconic or unusual whistled tunes. In the either case, the proper glyphs will be inset near the butt.
Created in mass numbers for the footsloggers of the draconic armies, Light Lances are a dependable weapon with a multitude of uses. To begin with, they can be used as Masterwork Steel Halberds , save that attempts to repair damage must be accompanied by a Knowledge: Arcana check. If exposed to sunlight for one hour, the crystal gains one charge, to a maximum of ten charges. A charge can be expended to make a ranged attack at a target within 120 feet (assume proficiency after a few practice shots; it's not made to be hard) This attack deals 1d8+3 force damage. On a critical hit, the target must make a DC 13 reflex save or be blinded for one minute. A charge can also be expended to provide light, as the spell, for one hour. A DC 15 Intelligence check allows the removal of the crystal, which can be replaced with others; this allows for near-constant usage.
No. 3064 ID: 778e29


Possibly. I think he is very much Lawful Good, though, so that's be a factor.

I like the light lance, but perhaps it should need regular maintenance as well, if it's being used? Even something like keeping it clean so that it can keep soaking up light.
No. 3065 ID: d25012

All deities only do little stuff. Like allow their most devout followers to take special feats.

My word is not absolute, but I'm gonna pretend like is is as say fuck no. No way in hell. I loved FFIX but Alexander is not right for this.
That's not to say that some of the core concepts of which he is comprised couldn't be used, but nothing that's recognizably Alexander.
No. 3066 ID: d25012

>Who were the other three?
Names and brief descriptions, for your convenience.
Most of the wiki is in pretty good condition.
No. 3067 ID: 799e54

I was thinking of lifewarping... temporary effects are just spells, no problem, but how do you represent permanent changes? I was thinking maybe a variety of Lifewarped templates, perhaps three - "Lifetouched", "Lifeworked" and "Lifewarped", each representing light, moderate and extensive changes.

With these would be a long list of possible alterations, with each template offering a certain number of them - characters with access to lifewarping (through using it themselves, having access to an artifact, etc.) could also take these alterations as "Lifewarped Feats". Particularly powerful alterations can be the result of stacking these on top of each other (for example, one alteration could give Swim Speed 10, which stacks up to 20 and to 30 and so on). If "Lifewarped Flaws" were also made, negative changes, they could be taken in exchange for extra positive ones, either in Feat form or during selection for the templates.

An Animal that takes more than two Lifewarped Feats, or which has the Lifeworked template, becomes a Magical Beast. Humanoids with the same become Monstrous Humanoids. More than five Feats, or the Lifewarped template, changes their type to Aberration. We should probably add a Lifewarped subtype as well, for spells and effects that target such creatures. Excess residual magic fades over generations, so lifewarped creatures that breed to create a uniform species become plain Animals, Magical Beasts, Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids, depending on how magical they remain.
No. 3068 ID: 799e54


A few examples of Lifewarped Feats:

Spell-Like Ability [Lifewarped]
Benefit: Select two 0-level spells or a single 1st-level spell ora single 1st level psionic power. From this repertoire you can use a Spell-like Ability 1/day as a 1st-level caster or manifester. The character cannot choose any Spell or Pwer that has an XP component or costly material component.
Special: This Feat can be taken multiple times, each time adding additional spells or powers or adding an extra usage per day.

Ability Training [Lifewarped]
Prerequisite: A Spell-Like Ability that is used as a 1st-level caster.
Benefit: You have become competent with your Spell-Like Abilities, and can apply the weight of your experience and power behind them. You use your Spell-like Abilities as if you had a caster/manifester level equal to your character level.
In addition, each time the Spell-Like Ability Feat is taken, the player may now "trade in" a number of Feats to gain Spell-like Abilities of higher level, up to half their character level. The Spell/Power Level traded must add up to the Level of the new Spell or Power. (For example: a 1st-Level Spell and a 2nd-level Spell can be traded for a 3rd-Level Spell as a Spell-like Ability, but only if the character were at least Level 6). Two 0-Level Abilities are worth one 1st-Level Ability.

Energy Conditioning [Lifewarped]
Benefit: You have been adapted to survive in high-energy environments. You gain damage resistance 5 against one type of Energy.
Special: This Feat may be taken multiple times, adding extra types of resistance or improving one already possessed.

Energy Battery [Lifewarped]
Prerequisites: (Energy) Resistance 10
Benefit: Your body becomes suited to channeling a specific type of energy. You use any Spells, Powers or Spell-like Abilities with that energy type at caster level +1.

Enhanced Sight [Lifewarped]
Benefit: Your eyes require less light. If you have normal vision, you gain Low-Light Vision. If you have Low-Light Vision, you gain Darkvision 30ft.

Exotic Movement [Lifewarped]
Benefit: You can move in unusual ways. You gain Climb, Swim or Burrowing Speed 10. Burrowing Speed allows easy movement through soil, clay, gravel and sand.
Special: This Feat can be taken multiple times, providing additional speed or a new type of movement.
No. 3069 ID: 43d730

I was trying to figure out which ones got eaten by Tiamat.

How about church feats with thematic linkages for deities?

Pale Creedsman
-Follower of the Aurelian Creed, Move Silently 2
>The veiled face of the moon, reflecting the glory of the sun, has bestowed its blessing upon me.
You gain Low-Light vision in moonlight of any sort. Depending on the phase of the moon (Which you know at all times), you gain another benefit, as shown below.
Full Moon: Increase your base land speed by 10, and increase the damage of any weapon consecrated to Selene by 2. (Scimitars, axes, kukri, etc.)
Half Moon[/i}: Increase the DC of stunning, dazing or charm effects that originate with you by one. Increase the miss chance from cover or darkness by 10% when you are targeted by a ranged attack.
[i]New Moon
: You get a +4 divine bonus to Hide and Move Silently.
You may not have multiple Favored feats.

Fickle Crafter's Will
-Dorf, Craft: Silversmithing 4 ranks
>This is an engraving of a goddess and dorfs. The dorfs are offering tribute. The goddess is choosing shoddily made tribute on a whim. The dorfs are crying. The goddess is laughing.
Your racial Iron Mastery abilities also apply to silver, as well as any further feats that modify them. You get a bonus depending on the phase of the moon (And can unfailingly indicate the phase of the moon):
Full Moon: You get a +2 divine bonus on Craft: Weaponsmithing and damage rolls with silver weapons.
Half Moon: You get a +2 divine bonus on Craft: Silversmithing and Sunder attempts.
New Moon: You get a +2 divine bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Appraisal checks.

Porcelain Mask of Lies
-Wila, Bluff 2 ranks
>One face speaks only the truth. One tells only lies. The last speaks both in equal measure.
You get a +2 divine bonus on will saves to resist compulsions or attempts to extract information from you. You gain another bonus depending on the phase of the moon, which you may tell infallibly:
Full Moon:You take a -2 penalty on Bluff checks, but get a +4 bonus on Sense Motive.
Half Moon:You get a +2 bonus on Bluff and Sense Motive.
New Moon:You take a -2 penalty on Sense Motive, but gain a +4 bonus on Bluff.
No. 3070 ID: 43d730

Shape Soulmeld for totemist melds.
Tentacles? We can do that.
Flat skill bonuses from misshapen limbs and monstrous adaptations? Same.
...Actually, these should work well, if a strong enough penalty is given- In a setting with fewer magic items, the drawback of taking up a slot is less severe.
Maybe have them give a flat penalty on saves against Transmutation(Lifewarping)?
No. 3072 ID: 43d730

Or http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Mutations , with tweaks for a few things.
Kinda makes it cookie-cutter, though. Use for ideas, at least.
No. 3073 ID: 1f9939

Don't let me distract from the work that is being done, but I was looking over the timeline. Like all humans (and presumably dorfs, etc.) I started seeing patterns and categories that might illuminate US history.

History is divided up into ages, so that we know how to categorize historical romance novels. The first age is the Draconian Era (Age of Scales). After the Draconians fell the Faestir, Sidhe and Goblins began their rise to power. This age is named after whichever of the three races is chronicling it. Outsiders haven't settled on a name yet but The Three Kingdoms Era (Age of Strife, Age of Hubris) is a popular suggestion.

It was a good age and lasted a long time, until it all ended in the Great Catastrophe (Big Fuckup) that laid the Goblins low. The Sidhe and Faestir struggled on, but found themselves weakened and under attack by neighbors that forced their retreat.

There follows a few centuries of darkness and barbarism. The Long Night came to an end a few centuries ago with the Humans, Wila and most recently the Sergals taking their place on the world stage. The Modern Era (Age of Discovery) is where we currently find ourselves.
No. 3074 ID: 757b49

This are really complicated, and it doesn't really cleave all that closely to the extant fluff. I'm thinking a single template, for something that's a lightly modified creature, and grants a number of Life-warping feats. Heavily modified creatures would, naturally, be treated as their own creature type. I see no reason to allow extant characters to modify themselves with Life-warping.

>temporary effects are just spells, no problem
How in the hell would lifewarping produce a temporary effect?

The feats... Energy Conditioning, Enhanced Sight, and Exotic Movement are good, though that last is a rather drastic change. The other three seem too overtly magical to me.

My own contribution:
Fleet [Lifewarped]
Increase your base land speed by 10.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
//from a balance perspective, it would make sense to make this a prerequisite to Exotic Movement. From a fluff point, though, not so much.

What books should I look in to figure out what the fuck you're talking about?

Those are good. The only real problem I can see is the difference with drawbacks and positive mutations doesn't make sense in this context. That, of course, is easily overcome by merely ignoring the distinction. I think this might be the best solution.

However none of this addresses a perhaps more fundamental problem: there is no consensus system for spellwarping. We talked about it before, but the only suggestion there was the idea to base it off of feats and skill checks, like designing epic spells, which some people liked but we never had a consensus agreement on. Any other ideas, or modifications to that, or anything?
No. 3075 ID: 43d730

Magic of Incarnum. For the short version, they're kind of like magic items that only work for you but get better as you shift more points into them. Without actual points of incarnum , which are hard to get, they just do one thing, or more if you put points in.

For players, one can either just grant them mutation points (for direct magical improvement or well-done shaping) or the opportunity to balance out for more powerful things from magical accidents and the like.
Maybe a feat that grants a few mutation points and the opportunity to dig in for better stuff?

It does require magical power, that is established. Perhaps work it like a craft check, with the materials being spell slots? In addition to whatever reagents and etc., of course.
At the very least, the Mutation table gives a decent baseline, yes? Further developments can be based on the things already there.
No. 3076 ID: 43d730

It's a balance and flavor issue. There are already effects in Transmutation (and especially Psychometabolism) that mimic minor changes made to living creatures... but there is a dividing line between these two very similar effects? The only difference is duration, and it makes an interesting thing for low-level Lifewarping specialists to do, as opposed to "Look, I made these mice deal one more damage on bite attacks".
It might be the kind of 'Apprentice's Tricks' starter kit for the arcanoscience, but I think it's similar enough for there to be a connection.

>Spell slots as components
This is a terrible idea, I apologise.
No. 3077 ID: 1f9939


I'm not a gearhead, but I just can't see lifewarping as a temporary thing. Thematically it's about shaping the very flesh of a living being into a form nature never intended.

Tampering with life? That can create the exotic mounts of the Aurelian Orders, or the dread servants of the Draconians. Failure means horrific Frankenstein monstrosities that you must destroy or better yet, they escape and you need a PC party to hunt them down before your unnatural work is discovered.

I just can't see that as the sort of blasphemy you can just wait out or hit Ctl-Z and undo.

Which is sort of fitting in. Consensus is that the setting is low magic, but we have areas that are high magic and also dangerous. Specifically portions of Everoc (Gentry) and Lindwurm (Draconian).

Magic isn't something you play with like a chemistry set you buy in a store. It has a will of its own, a spirit with its own desires and goals. There are plenty of minor gods (nature spirits) in our world, but some say that all spells share the same willfulness. Only a fool would dare to summon the kind of power that can turn upon and overwhelm them. Lifewarping treads dangerously close to that border.
No. 3078 ID: 757b49

I approve, though it's worth noting that there was not a lot of strife in the Three Kingdoms Era. And that goblins are liable to call it the Age of Hubris.


>It does require magical power, that is established.
It uses magic, certainly. I would not be inclined to limit it to casting classes, though.

>For players
Lifewarping of sentient races is considered abominable, in the modern era. As such, it happens rarely, and when it does, the perpetrators generally do not allow their subjects to escape, for fear of being killed for their transgressions. Thus Lifewarped sentients are sufficiently rare as to not merit special rules.

>it makes an interesting thing for low-level Lifewarping specialists
PCs will generally have many areas in which they are competent, of which Lifewarping would be only one. I see no reason to invent a lesser form of lifewarping merely for that reason. If a player does not see lifewarping as engaging, he need not specialize in it. Personally, the idea of manipulating life to this extent seems a very interesting power. Throwing a few baubles in to sweeten the deal may be a good strategy for a street salesman, but it's both pointless and awkward here.

>Specifically portions of Everoc (Gentry) and Lindwurm (Draconian).
Also Heloraen Vosilea, which is far more explicitly dangerous than any part of Everoc.
No. 3079 ID: 799e54

>PCs will generally have many areas in which they are competent, of which Lifewarping would be only one.

The trouble isn't what you do with Lifewarping, it's how you get started with Lifewarping.

Now, if it's accessed through some PrC, it's simple enough - "Must be able to cast a Transmutation spell of at least 6th Level" or something will do. But what if we want to make a base class or something?

... I'm thinking now of a shareware game called "Geneforge". The main character is a "Shaper"; with magic and with a substance that is basically primordial goo, he spontaneously creates creatures to serve him. With more goo (I forget the game's name for it), you can either make more creatures or improve the ones you have. However, your maximum supply of goo also represent the limit of creatures you can control - after making enough creatures, or making one that's powerful enough, you can't make any more. You can also use some basic forms of other magic and some other fantasy-character skills, fighty sneaky etc.

Perhaps something like that for Lifewarpers? A "pet class"?
No. 3080 ID: 799e54

>it happens rarely, and when it does, the perpetrators generally do not allow their subjects to escape

What if the "perpetrator" is an artifact? You're stumbling around in some ancient ruin, find some lab and suddenly a booming voice goes "INFERIOR LIFE FORM DETECTED, ENGAGING UPGRADE PROTOCOL in draconic, and suddenly you're tipped into a big machine-organ and after a few torturous hours you come out as something different. And insane, most likely.

>The other three seem too overtly magical to me.

Well, if we're talking about stuff the draconians made, then shooting heat beams from your eyes, being turned into a portable power generator for their equipment, or having your voice pitched to a tone that hypnotizes people, all seem pretty par for the course.
No. 3081 ID: 757b49

>What if the "perpetrator" is an artifact? You're stumbling around in some ancient ruin, find some lab and suddenly a booming voice goes "INFERIOR LIFE FORM DETECTED, ENGAGING UPGRADE PROTOCOL in draconic, and suddenly you're tipped into a big machine-organ and after a few torturous hours you come out as something different. And insane, most likely.
Then your DM is a dick.

>Well, if we're talking about stuff the draconians made
I wasn't, I was talking about the stuff posted, which I was assuming would be available to anyone with skill in lifeshaping. If those more magical ones were somehow limited to extremely skilled lifewarpers, it would be totally fine.

I wasn't thinking lifewarping should be a class a all. Focusing a class on something long-term like that would lead to characters that are incompetent (or at the very least boring) in combat, and can't really do much of anything that someone else can't do better.

That's not to say a PrC based around Lifewarping wouldn't be cool, for a character that gets really into it, but that should not be the basis of the system.

Geneforge is far more short-term than lifewarping. While it's a good game, it's not really relevant. The play style just doesn't transfer over.
No. 3082 ID: cbc5b9


>Lifewarping of sentient races is considered abominable, in the modern era. As such, it happens rarely, and when it does, the perpetrators generally do not allow their subjects to escape, for fear of being killed for their transgressions.

How about using lifewarping as a method of punishment? I'm reminded of Remaking in China Mieville's Bas-Lag books, criminals would be melded with machines or organic parts to make them fit for manual labor, to remind them of their crime (one woman who had killed her child had the child's arms grafted to her stomach for instance), or just to mess them up and make them into grotesque monsters (it complicates escape, for one).


>I wasn't thinking lifewarping should be a class a all. Focusing a class on something long-term like that would lead to characters that are incompetent (or at the very least boring) in combat, and can't really do much of anything that someone else can't do better.

I think the entry-level class for a Lifewarper prestige class should be a healer class. You're setting bones, inducing clotting, weaving muscle fibers. Not a big stretch from there to laying hands on an enemy and twisting his intestines around or turning his skeleton into mush (but these abilities should be at least full-round touch attacks, hard to perform and easily misfiring). Mostly, this class would do minor healing in combat, and major healing outside combat. Such a class could perhaps get an animal familiar early on, that could be used for lifeshaping later.

Another thing:

>I approve, though it's worth noting that there was not a lot of strife in the Three Kingdoms Era. And that goblins are liable to call it the Age of Hubris.

How can 3 major empires coexist without any kind of strife, at least a cold war going on? We could add some stuff into that time period.
No. 3083 ID: cbc5b9

>What if the "perpetrator" is an artifact? You're stumbling around in some ancient ruin, find some lab and suddenly a booming voice goes "INFERIOR LIFE FORM DETECTED, ENGAGING UPGRADE PROTOCOL in draconic, and suddenly you're tipped into a big machine-organ and after a few torturous hours you come out as something different. And insane, most likely.
>Then your DM is a dick.

Well, it makes for a nice monster-generating trap, as well as a good explanation for 1) why there's so many lifewarped monsters infesting Draconic ruins and 2) what happens to many of those other, non-PC adventurer teams exploring the place.
No. 3084 ID: 43d730

In addition to being an impetus for continuing to adventure; fixing the fact that your face is now a mass of tentacles or that you catch on fire when angry.
I meant that people will occasionally build their character around being a lifewarper, and being a normal wizard/sorcerer/psion for the five levels or so it takes to end up with the feat are probably going to be most of the low-magic game.
Sidhe-Faestir "We would very much enjoy the opportunity to inspect the obviously lesser but still useful works of the former masters of this continent." "No. Have some tea instead."
Goblin-Faestir "Bring out yer dead! Please? We wanna make fast, jumpy zombies!"
Sidhe-Goblin "This one wonders if the abominable practice of ripping holes in the barrier of life and death could cease, completely unrelated with the movement of troops around the borders of your colonies." *Zombie carrier pigeon explodes, showering rotted gore everywhere*
No. 3086 ID: f69bdd


We'd have:
Faestir: military dominance
Goblins: naval dominance
Sidhe: magical dominance

Faestir would start off as friends of the goblins, start to disapprove as all the necrostuff rose up, but wouldn't be open about it because they need sea travel to maintain their empire and the goblins would be able to mess them up. The Sidhe would be least populous, and wouldn't want to mess with the other two because of it; the other two wouldn't want to mess with them because they don't know what magical tricks they have up their sleeve. And the goblins wouldn't want to mess with the faestir because the feistir have stron, experienced armies and who-knows-what secret draconian weapons.

So yes, cold war! Lots of spying, secret movements, looking for new options and setting up paranoid contingency measures against each other. Lots of fun.
No. 3087 ID: 1f9939

If you want to mutilate somebody, it is a lot cheaper to just chop off their hand. Lifewarping is the equivalent of a complicated surgical procedure and very few people know how to do it.

The crazy monsters running around were weekend projects of the Draconians. In the modern day only the Sidhe and the Toltecatl know how to do it. There is a secret project by the Federated Kingdoms to fix the defects in the Aurelian Mounts in order to reduce elven influence, but it hasn't gotten far.

After the first few prototypes are made, then you just breed them normally. Or dump them in the Water Forest where they will never bother anyone ever again.

I also see lifewarping as very Frankenstein in style. You have to do surgery, grafting animals together and growing new organs like homonoculi. Lifewarper labs should be filled with bubbling jars filled with colored liquids and preserved tissues. You also need a vat of electric eels so you can power the machine that goes "Zzzzzzzt!"

Obviously if it exists, the players will want to do it. A prestige class seems the best way of handling it. Magical skill plus a bunch of healing and knowledge ranks seems appropriate.

Oh and while there may be machines deep in Lindwurm still cranking out monsters, doing lifewarping on sentient creature is almost as foul as necromancy. The Sidhe get very angry when anyone brings up the rumor they used to do it to themselves centuries ago as part of their perfection craze.
No. 3088 ID: 1f9939

Forgot the Illithiad. They must have some knowledge of lifewarping. Their raiders wear lobster armor with mantis shrimp punch. You can only go so far and so fast with selective breeding alone.

Of course they mostly raid Furnshakt, so if anybody else knows about them, nobody cares. The ships they take are just chalked up to the dangers of crossing the Sea of Ghosts, piracy or bad weather.

Though the accountants of the Vyntril Permanent Assurance Company have noticed some odd trends. The Board of Directors is considering a proposal to hire some adventurers to look into it.
No. 3089 ID: 43d730

I remember a mention somewhere of them picking it up from Scrying on everybody else using it...
So does that mean they have countermeasures for it? Probably not for the Age of Scale stuff, but I can see them having tailored poisons and attacks for everything else.
And we need to actually work these guys out statwise.
No. 3090 ID: 942355

Well, the "divine warlock" idea for the "reistir" earlier caught my imagination, so like a madman I started doing a writeup for it as a 3.5 base class. Since sticking it with just one race seemed restrictive, I added the option to allow it for other creatures with a touch of divinity in them.

It's mostly done, I just need to make a list of the invocations, which I'll do tomorrow. Offer any advice, criticism or other suggestions you like, I'm not well-practiced at balancing D&D mechanics.


Long ago, the faestir race was sprung from the union of Reis, the Lonely Mother, and Leviathan, second of the three Dragon Gods who ascended from the draconians in the Age of that great species' self-destruction. Now, with their Empire broken and their fortunes at their lowest ebb, a few faestir have begun to harness the inherited power of their divine progenitors, which has lain dormant in their blood since the first of them were born. Unlike clerics or druids, who draw down the power of greater beings through the medium of spells, a reistir draws on their supernatural heritage through emotional drive and meditative clarity to exert control over life, thought and water.

At the discretion of the DM, the reistir class can also represent other mortal beings who carry the blood of a holy entity, though their nature must remain in line with that of the abilities granted to them - it may be ruled that such individuals do not have access to Water Path invocations, and a new Path may be made for their use (The descendants of a sun god, for example, may have a fire-based Path).

Adventures: Still exploring their abilities, most reistir seek a purpose for their power and answer to the question of why it has awakened. They can gravitate to the churches of Reis or Leviathan and, like clerics, can seek to further the aims of their religion. Because their powers are suited to aiding others, many reistir are also driven by compassion; others may find that their magic does not fit in with faestir society or is subject to the jealousy or suspicions of others, and seek to prove their worth with great deeds or the accumulation of wealth.

Characteristics: Reistir are hosts to a once-dormant fragment of divine power which has begun to awaken. As they become more powerful, they take on a number of traits representing the slow transformation this brings. Reistir do not cast spells, but they harness their power to perform a small number of distinct spell-like abilities called Invocations, which come in four types or "Paths". Reistir are not as directly tough as clerics, but gain a number of protective supernatural abilities, and because they do not need to serve one cause with as much dedication, they can learn additional skills.
No. 3091 ID: 942355


Alignment: Reistir are often good. Their power is suited towards aiding others, and their latent ability often first appears under circumstances when they desperately wish to help someone. However, reistir can be of any alignment.

Religion: As expected, many reistir turn to the worship of their progenitors, Reis and Leviathan. Reistir descended from other holy beings may similarly worship whoever they are descended from (or whatever deity they serve, in the case of powerful outsiders).

Background: Rather than being the result of choice, the potential to become a reistir is inborn in an individual; this power remains hidden until exposed to a similar force, which may come in many forms, including the tutelage of a more experienced member of the class. In the case of non-feistir, the player is free to decide the nature of their origins. Reistir are generally not aasimar or half-celestials, but it is possible for such creatures to develop levels in the class if the DM opens its availability to non-faestir.

Races: By default, reistir are only found among members of the feistir race. If other heritages are permitted to create the class, however, they may appear among any race - though it is extremely unlike with monstrous humanoids.

Other classes: Reistir occasionally have trouble with clerics, who - if they are not servants of their ancestor - will likely distrust the apparent ease and carelessness with which the reistir wields divine energy. They value martial classes such as fighters and rangers, on whom their powers are often most effective and who value them the most in return.

Role: A reistir serves an adventuring party most often in the role of providing healing and providing buffs. However, a reistir who focuses on the Water path of invocations has strong capacity to disable enemies, while the Spirit path offers a number of options for dealing with NPCs outside of combat.
No. 3092 ID: 942355


Game Rule Information
Reistir have the following game statistics.
Abilities: A high Charisma score make a reistir's invocations harder to resist. High Dexterity is valuable, allowing better aim for ranged touch attacks and additional protection. Good Constitution is useful as well.
Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills
The reistir's class skills are Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
No. 3093 ID: 942355


Class Features
All of the following are class features for the reistir.

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Reistir are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armour but not with shields.

Spell failure chance: unlike other divine spellcasters, reistir must use simple somatic components for their magic, and so suffer spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armour. A multiclass reistir, however, does not incur spell failure chance on divine spells received from levels in other classes.

Class synergy: A reistir who is a cleric of Reis or Leviathan (or whoever their progenitor deity is for non-faestir) may add their reistir level to their cleric level to determine caster level for their spells.

Invocations: Reistir does not prepare or cast spells the way other users of divine magic do. Rather, they have a range of themed spell-like abilities referred to as invocations, with which they express the divine nature the runs through their blood. As spell-like abilities, invocations can be used at will, but take the form of standard actions (unless specified otherwise) that can provoke attacks of opportunity. Like a spell, they can be disrupted, and a Concentration check can prevent this either by response to an attack or by allowing an invocation to be used defensively.
The save DC for an invocation is is 10 + equivalent spell level + the reistir's Charisma modifier. Invocations cannot benefit from Spell Focus or Metamagic feats, but can benefit from feats which emulate these for abilities, such as Ability Focus or Maximised Spell-like Ability (these can be found in the Monster Manual, pages 303 and 304). The level equivalent of an invocation depends on its grade, which run from least to lesser, greater and holy in order. A warlock begins with knowledge of two invocations of the least grade, and she learns new ones as she levels up, as summarised in the table below. At any level in which she gains a new invocation, a reistir can replace an invocation she already knows with another of the same or lower grade. Her capacity in learning invocations goes up by one grade at levels 6, 11 and 16.

Divine Evolution: At second level, a reistir chooses the path their transformation into a divine being will take. They may choose the Unity branch or the Purity branch.

Unity: Reistir who follow the Unity branch (which the faestir may call the Way of Leviathan) gain divine authority over the elements of the world and the magics of mortal beings. At 2nd level, they gain the ability to use Detect Magic(Sp) as the spell at will, with caster level equal to their class level. At 4th level, they gain Item Affinity(Ex), which allows them to take 10 on any Use Magic Device check even when threatened or distracted. At 7th level, they gain Spell Resistance(Su) equal to their class level + Cha modifier.
At level 10, a reistir gains Energy Resistance(Su), granting them resistance 5 against any two of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. This improves to resistance 10 at level 15. At 11th level,they gain the Block Spell(Sp) ability. Whenever they or another creature within 30 feet are targeted by a spell of a level less than half their own class level, the reistir can make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) as a swift action to automatically counter the spell. This exertion is a drain, however, so a reistir who has used her Block Spell ability cannot use any of her invocations until she spends a standard action to recover. At level 19, reistir gain the Reflect Spell(Sp) ability, with which they may choose to turn any spell that they have successfully Blocked back against its caster.
Finally, at level 20, a reistir realises the nature of her divine draconian ancestor and gains the Half-Dragon template. Their breath weapon and elemental immunity is chosen from one of the two energy resistances they possess.

Purity: Reistir who follow the Purity branch (referred to by faestir members of the class as the Way of Reis) develop a sanctity which protects them from evil and corruption. At level 2, they may Detect Evil(Sp) at will, as the spell. At 4th level, they gain Purity of Health(Ex), which renders them immune to all non-supernatural diseases and poisons. This improves to also protect against supernatural poisons and diseases at level 7, at which point the reistir also develops Purity of Mind(Ex), which grants them a bonus equal to their Charisma modifier against all mind-affecting spells, powers or other effects (magical or otherwise).
At level 10, the reistir becomes Sacrosanct (Ex), granting her resistance 5 against negative energy and a bonus equal to her Charisma modifier to resist all necromancy spells, and preventing her or her body from ever being being made into an undead creature. This improves at level 15 to resistance 10 and immunity to all magical effects which drain levels or ability scores (with the exception of the level loss that attends being raised from the dead). At level 11, Purity reistir develop Purity of Soul (Sp); they gain an Aura of Good (regardless of their alignment) and become constantly subject to Protection From Evil, as the spell. At level 19, this power grows to a Magic Circle Against Evil centred constantly on their location.
Finally, at level 20, the reistir transcends mortality and gains the Half-Celestial template. They do not, however, gain wings or additional spell-like abilities, and are not limited in their alignment.

Reis' Breath (Su): Beginning at 8th level, a reistir can grant fast healing 1 to themselves or another creature for 2 minutes, once per day. At 13th level, this improves to fast healing 2; the ability develops once more at level 18, to grant fast healing 5.

Imbue Item (Su): A reistir of level 12 or higher can use her supernatural power to create magic items, even if she doesn't know the spells needed to make it (though she must know the appropriate item creation feat). She can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for divine spells or 25 + spell level for arcane spells) in place of a spell she doesn't know or cannot cast.
If the check succeeds, the reistir can create the item as if she had cast the spell required. If it fails, she cannot complete the item. She does not expend XP or gp costs for a failed attempt. She cannot retry this Use Magic Device check until she gains a new level.
No. 3094 ID: 942355


That leaves invocations, which will be most fun to select, I think. The standard "faestir-reistir" version of the class has invoctions that come in four types or "Paths", called Water, Spirit, Restoration and Evolution.
Water essentially takes the place of the warlock's Eldritch Blast and lets reistir interfere with their enemies, mostly in non-lethal ways: a grease-like effect, knocking creatures back, dealing non-lethal damage, and so on, with a few other tricks like cushioning falls and using water to manipulate objects like a kind of very moist telekinesis.
Spirit is a sort of "lifeforce of the world" thing, allows telepathy-based invocations (mostly adapted straight from the psionics handbook) and some holy-style stuff, fighting undead and outsiders and such.
Restoration is pretty much all healing, hopefully a little flavoursome; mostly I think it'd be better as regeneration, fast healing, transferring wounds onto yourself sort of thing, rather than straight hp restoration.
Evolution is buffs, improving ability scores, a lot borrowed from transmutation spells and psychometabolism powers. We'll see what can be thought up.
No. 3097 ID: 46ffcc


Invocations take longer to come up with than I expected! I'll take my time with 'em since I seem to be only writing for myself. Here's a start, anyway.

Reistir Invocations
Reistir choose what invocations they learn as they gain levels, as spontaneous spellcasters do. An invocation is a spell-like ability, however, not a spell, with a spell level equivalent as mentioned above. Reistir can dismiss their invocations as a standard action.

Water Path Invocations
Imitating the dominion that Leviathan took over all manifestations of flowing water, reistir use the invocations of this type to manipulate that liquid. Able to lift, carry, throw, shape and temporarily solidify water, this group of abilities allows them to physically manipulate the world around them and offers the majority of the class' offensive options.
A reistir needs a supply of water to use most of these invocations. It can be assumed in most situations that they can concentrate it out of the atmosphere or pull it up from under the ground, leaving them vulnerable only in desert conditions. A reistir can reclaim any water they've used in an invocation, however, and so could use a carried supply of water for their magic without fear of waste. If water is required for other reasons, a reistir who knows at least one invocation from this group can create water as the spell as a standard action. Reistir can draw water from ice by turning it into a liquid form, but they otherwise have no power over it while it remains frozen.

Aquatic Cushion: Create a large pillow of water that absorbs falling damage and can catch large projectiles.
Aquatic Disc: Shape water into a protective barrier that interposes itself between attacks and their target. Provide the benefit of the shield spell to yourself and nearby allies for as long as you concentrate. This cannot block incorporeal attacks, but can provide cover as a tower shield does. Alternately, use water to provide the effect of a tenser's floating disc.
Aquatic Punch: A hammer of high-pressure water targets a creature as a ranged attack, with a range increment of 60ft and dealing 1d6 damage plus an additional d6 every two levels.
Aquatic Push: A wave of water batters foes. Creatures within a 30ft cone take 1d6 + 1/level nonlethal damage and must make a Strength check (DC equal to invocation save DC) if up to one size category larger than you. If they fail, they are pushed back 5 feet and knocked prone. Unusually stable creatures gain +2 to this check.
Flowsense: If standing in at least one foot of water, you gain tremorsense. If underwater, you gain blindsense.
Lubrication: A thin coat of water inhibits friction. Create the effect of a grease spell for as long as you concentrate.
Creature of the Mist: Create a fog cloud as the spell.
Surf: You can walk on water, and gain 10ft additional movement speed while doing so.
No. 3098 ID: 43d730

Perhaps the favor of the deities of other races manifests with divine power, but the favor as relating to the Faestir shows up from bloodline?

Waterball: A 10-ft radius blast of 4d6 nonlethal damage, initiates Bull Rush against foes.
Leviathan's Lesser Embrace: As a combination of Protection from Energy (Fire/Acid), Blur, and Glitterdust. Imposes a -4 penalty on saves against cold.
Parch: Inflicts Fatigue on a touched target. If they fail the save by ten or more, they become Exhausted instead. Also Creates Water.
Quench: Relieves Fatigue on a touched target. Extinguishes fires, allows dispel check on Fire effects.
Silver-Scale Travel: You gain a Swim speed of 40 feet, can use the Run action while swimming, and can Sprint once per hour.
Parting of Earth: Limited control over mud and clay, as Shape Stone. Manipulated earth temporarily becomes as hard as stone.
River Splits Stone: A high-pressure stream of water deals 1d4 damage+1d4/2 levels, bypasses DR, and inhibits regeneration.
Smallest River: Bonus equal to level on certain skills; manipulated water takes place of tools.
Hollow Shape: Invisibility, as the spell.
Lake of the Body:Deal 1 damage to physical ability scores with touch attack. Target may be Dazed.
Sinkhole Decoy Defense: Create Simulacrum of you that grapples foes that attack it.
No. 3099 ID: 1f9939

Great work. I think whenever something like this shows up (as it has a few times in this thread) people get intimidated....

"I was just going to speculate on the various fencing schools and their rivalries. This is what I have to match?"
No. 3100 ID: 171e7b


These seem good, but Hollow Shape and Lake of the Body seems a bit too "abstract magic", since the theme thus far with the water invocations is direct, physical stuff. I think, as well, the invocations that buff you up should be less powerful, in exchange for being capable of being spread to allies.

Also, are those all Least invocations?
No. 3101 ID: 43d730

Lesser- Lake of the Body is supposed to be causing internal damage through messing with internal structures, Hollow Body does need work.
Leviathan's Lesser Embrace is a kind of thin layer of water as a protective measure.
The improved versions should work up to a titan of water with the caster at the helm.
No. 3102 ID: 171e7b


Well, remember that that there are three other kinds of invocations that can pick up slack. Spirit, for example, can probably generate an invisibility-ish, "these aren't the droids you're looking for" kind of effect, so a water-based invisibility isn't necessary.
No. 3103 ID: f56f3c

Just thinking about faestir... surely some of their army would have survived the fall of their city, if only to cover the retreat of the survivors? If they do retain a small amount of men(rats?)-at-arms, they could possibly be hired out as mercenary forces to help support their remnant nation. Since they'd probably keep the finest professional military skills in the world, pretty much anyone would want them, and as polite honourable send-money-home sorts they'd be a nice counterpoint to the typically grimdark mercenaries that usually hang around in fantasy settings. As well as which, it'd give the faestir a presence in many historical events while not leaving them enough power to wield much influence.
No. 3109 ID: 442734

Onwards, if I may...

Kraken Grasp: Use Evard's black tentacles, as the spell, but with selective targeting of characters within the area of effect.
Willing Water: Use control water as the spell on a body of water, and/or apply effect of slow against any creatures within it. Strength check to save.
Mud Shift: As Move Earth, but only on mud, damp sand or reasonably moist soil.
Aquatic Grasp: Use Hold Monster as the spell for as long as you concentrate. Strength check saves.

Leviathan's Hand: Use Bigby's Clenched Fist, Bigby's Forceful Hand, Bigby's Grasping Hand or Bigby's Interposing Hand, as the spells. Lacks effectiveness against incorporeal creatures or objects.
No. 3110 ID: 43d730

Ocean's Song: You move with unparalleled speed and become immune to damage in the water.
Red Ocean: As Horrid Wilting, but viewers are Frightened.
Breakers: Telekinesis, but only affects living targets.
Bounty of the Sea:Your type changes to Elemental (Water, Augmented, Dragonblood), and you gain several benefits.
Leviathan's Shadow: You summon a shade of the Mighty Leviathan to do battle. Difficult to control.

Spirit, Least Invocations
Collective Soul:You and allies gain benefits from staying near.
Blades of Spirit: Summon weapon, or weapon you wield counts as magic and aligned for DR.
Enigma: Become aware of attempts to affect your mind, rebound effect on originator.
Know Fear: You grasp subject's greatest fear.
Crisis of Righteousness: Forcing another viewpoint on a sentient, you stun them for one round.
Wispy Sight: You peer into the Near Ethereal, seeing concealed targets and their thoughts.
Bahamut's Gaze: Strike fear into those weaker than you. Inspire allies.

Off flavor? I tend to see things differently, apologies.
No. 3119 ID: eebe97


Some of those spirit invocations seem a little powerful for Least.
No. 3120 ID: 43d730

I tried to leave them vague...
Let us see...
Collective Soul:You and allies within Short range (25+5/CL) gain a +2 bonus to Will saves. Increase the bonus from flanking and Aid Another by +1.
Blade of Spirit: Prepared weapon you wield counts as good-aligned and Magic for the purposes of DR. Requires a short ritual and holy water to prepare weapon.
Enigma: You get a +1 bonus on Will saves versus Charm and Compulsion effects. Whenever you are exposed to such an effect, you may act normally for one round, even if you fail your save.
Know Fear: If the target fails a Will save, you realise their greatest fear. This grants you a +1 to the DCs of any fear effects that target them, as well as a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks.
Crisis of Righteousness: If the target fails a Will save, the opposing viewpoint forces them to contemplate their position in life for one round, effectively Stunning them. After being affected by this ability, the target is immune to this ability for the next 24 hours.
Wispy Sight: You can see dematerialised spirits, some auras, and Aetheric Sinkholes. It takes a DC 20 Spot check to distinguish a spirit from a physical object while this ability is active (Move action to put up or take down, auto-succeed if confirmation occurs-I.E. the spirit travels through a wall). You also gain a +4 bonus to Sense Motive.
Bahamut's Lidded Eye: Whenever you charge, attack, or shout, creatures within 30 feet with fewer HD than you must make a Will save (DC 12+CHAMOD) or become Shaken for 1d10 rounds. Allies in the same area gain a +2 bonus on saves against fear.
Distract: As the psionic power of the same name.
Mindlink: As the psionic power of the same name.
No. 3128 ID: 497870

The flavour I had pictured for reistir is... well, not low magic, but low-key magic. Nothing hugely flashy until you get to the high levels. Water invocations are just moving water around, healing and buffing is an extension of that, and the spirit invocations are sort of unseen telepathy, empathy stuff. It's divine magic, but in its in-fluff relation to the draconians I thought it'd be vaguely sciencey bullshit divine magic - that'd help justify the class' presence in a low-magic world. Mostly what's been contributed has stayed within those parameters, though. I suppose for non-faestir members of the class, who are descended from angels or something, they'd have more flashy magic. So, I dunno. We'd need a bit of a vote on it, I guess.

On a mostly unrelated subject, wouldn't faestir have a lot of archers, in addition to the spear fetish? What with the high mobility of their jumping ability, they'd be pretty scary on any moderately rugged battlefield. It'd also go well with the idea of the draconian artifact-hunting/guarding ranger corps mentioned earlier.

There's a few non-magic ranger variants, aren't there? One of those would work well.
No. 3129 ID: 43d730

Archers, maybe even Dragoons in the usual sense of the word, cavalry for flat ground where the jumping is less useful, and possibly a Magineer's Corps wielding ancient artifacts.
No. 3130 ID: 497870


I dunno, repeated long-distance jumping would be about as fast as conventional cavalry, and I expect with those wiry legs and the Vaess heritage that faestir warriors would have fantastic endurance. They'd basically travel long-distance like ninjas do in naruto, if you'd forgive me the mention.

Their biggest military weakness would probably be heavies. Of course they're going to take advantage of their mobility, so they won't be using close formations, shield walls, siege, etc.

Speaking of ranged, would they use shortbows, longbows, crossbows? Would archers have swords for backup, or would they stay in-theme and use spears?
No. 3133 ID: 43d730

I'm thinking repeated long-distance jumping would be effective, but incredibly tiring. Like running the same distance.
And again, it would be better for rougher terrain, as opposed to flatlands or desert.
That is an interesting note.
Just speaking as a thought experiment here, Unified Setting as a wargame. What sort of Joe Schmo units are the backbone of the various peoples?

Continued note-
That's why I tried to make those powers subtle in appearance. Nothing on that list is overtly obvious unless one wanted to stick streamers of magic power on, or something.
No. 3134 ID: 497870

It would be tiring, but with the reduced supply train that they'd have without need to support their mounts, combined with their improved ability to just go straight over hills, rivers and suchlike, they'd probably get where they're going much faster. Their mobility would also allow them to set up camp in areas inaccessible to other races, so altogether they'd have time to rest up when they got where they're going, or just before arriving.

Then you have the magic factor. A spell that washes away fatigue is on the low end of the power scale - in D&D terms, it'd probably be a first-level spell. If each warrior carries one or two potions with them then they're set, and clerics they have.

Now, wargames... tricky question. We haven't really fleshed out many of the militaries besides faestir, have we? I guess sergals would be next up in terms of conventional military power, and we already know what their elites and infantry are like. They probably have some sort of skirmishers as well, and maybe some cannon-fodder slave units. Dorfs we all know, too.
No. 3139 ID: 1f9939

>>Just speaking as a thought experiment here, Unified Setting as a wargame. What sort of Joe Schmo units are the backbone of the various peoples?

There was a previous incarnation of this thread on the board, in a forum now lost to time. I didn't write this, but will repost another Anon's thoughts on the setting military.

Usual, I think it's something like (Main units only)
Raiders/skirmishers/stealth - Gnolls (Cover of Night), Goblins (Short green vikings), Wila (Positioning is everything), Sergals (for the Chryssalid defense)
Footsloggan/Legions/Mobs - Humans (especially Baetica), Kobolds (No order, just going in the same direction with enthusiasm), Dorfs (Bricks)
Cavalry/outriders/etc. - Sidhe (Triple-Elite knights), Wila again (LOBSTERS)

Can't figure out where to put the Toltecatl or Doobies. I mean, they must have resisted the Empire a little, at least, but how?
No. 3140 ID: 1f9939

Previous thread continued since not everyone saw it.
Faestir: Lances, spears, crossbows, and probably whatever they can scavenge out of the ruins.
Corgyn: Shortbows, shortswords and shields, and luck.
Doobies: ... Fuck if I know. Warspoons? Hooked Hammers?
DORFS: Hammers, Axes, Beefy-ass swords, Picks, etc.
Gnolls: Anything looted, probably no specialised racial weapons that aren't tools.
Goblins: Cutlasses! Guns?! Ballistae! Endless Knives!
Humans: Divided up later by faction. For now, Baetica needs hammers and sickles, Solaris needs big shiny shields, and Gorgossa needs khopeshes or something.
Kobolds: Um... Rocks?
Toltecatl: Spears, weird swords, and buggered-up exotic weapons. Also nets.
Sergals: SPEARSPEARSPEAR with a minority of double-sword.
Wila: Daggers, crossbows, spring crossbows, or whatever deity-weapon.

Faestir: Hiding, first, then hit and run. Instead of sergal use of GIANT LANDS, they use rain and fog.
Corgyn: One insolent warrior with really good reflexes taunts them into ambush, then ARROWED.
Doobies: Trust in their unique superiority to pull nurglish tactics.
DORFS: Bricks. Blocks of heavy-armor dorfs.
Gnolls: Hide all day, skirmish all night.
Humans: Divided up later by faction. For now, Baetica needs MANSMANSMANS, Solaris needs kniggits, and Gorgossa needs quick cavalry.
Sergals: Skirmish and land use.
Wila: One, they've failed by it getting this far. In which case, where are your supply trains?
No. 3141 ID: 1f9939

Faestir: The Vaess uth Bahamut, or the Arrows.
Corgyn: Beserkers. Bronze weapons, piles of charms, and magic.
DORFS: Hammers and Anvils. The former wears heavy armor and ride rhinos. The other wears superheavy armor and ENDURES.
Gnolls: Warleaders?
Goblins: Enders. Specialised undead hunters.
Humans: Divided up later by faction.
Kobolds: Leader?
Toltecatl: Doorkeepers of Rs. Immovable war-casters.
Sergals: Too many to count. General rule is ornateness of armor.
Wila: We don't ahve any of those at all. Now, would you be interested in buying some of these jewels?

Magic organisations
Faestir: The Dancers and the College of War.
Corgyn: Minor Wisemen and Feylocks.
Doobies: ???
DORFS: Magi-Generals, the Council, and the Wise Guild.
Gnolls: Shamans.
Goblins: The Hunters in the Dark, and the Preservers. The latter studies necromancy to better counter it.
Humans: Divided up later by faction. Aurelia gets PRIESTS PRIESTS PRIESTS, for certain.
Kobolds: Smartest one in clan?
Toltecatl: Too many to count. Ruled by Archivists.
Sergals: Part of the Experts Division, along with engineers, sculptors, etc. Have supremacy in their field of study, but only then.
Sidhe: Lifewardens (druids who make sure lifewarping doesn't go too far) and the Invisible College (Floating crystal castle that trains wizards.)
Wila:Very few, mostly in raider groups as a counter to casters they might find.
Low chance of random magic in Sidhe, Sergals and Wila.
High chance of random magic in Kobolds, Humans, and Toltecatl.
No. 3142 ID: fce6fd


Seems we've revised the faestir a bit since that, made them pretty much good at everything military except heavies and siege, and probably having a good strategic understand of those regardless.

The rest seem... ok, but the format is a little hard to read through.
No. 3143 ID: 1f9939

This was from when tgchan was first getting started. I came across it, saved it and am just doing copypasta.

Agreed on the faestir weaknesses. Going phalanx would be a waste of their mobility. Heavies also take heavy casualties and they don't have the population to find that acceptable. I'm pretty sure there are a dozen Sun Tzu's "Art of War" out there (one or more from each race) with adherents arguing their virtues.

The faestir one emphasizes coming back alive, losing a battle is nothing compared to losing an army...or a race. Not that the author advises caution, but while gambles save lives they can also cost you dearly. Always ask if the wager is worth it.

That's why fans of "The Collected Thoughts and Musings of The Glorious Governor-General Rain" call the faestir pussies. Rain's doctrines on battle-shock and "War is a dance. Always lead." are far more popular after the sergal's rapid rise.

The faestir also suck at siege warfare. They lost Opossokarthel to a pack of kobolds. Beat that for lame.
No. 3144 ID: fce6fd


Well, there's siege and there's urban warfare. They'd be bad at the first and good at the second... sort of. They could get around easily, but spears aren't good for close-combat fighting. I imagine they'd have regular swordsmen as well, or possibly shortspear users. Later on they'd also have the Sweepers, mentioned earlier in this thread, as a sort of ninja-esque fighting force.

I imagine the faestir would have several "Art of War"s, anyway. One the original Vaess used, the one made for their faestir students when they set out to make the empire, another for using the forces that could be raised from the tributary nations, and so on. Wilderness combat/survival manuals for the ranger-types who guarded draconian ruins, dissertations on the strengths and weaknesses of other races... lots of stuff. Being as civilized (read: british) as they are, they probably wrote everything down, and a fantasy setting has way more variables and situations to be accounted for than Sun Tzu had to deal with.
No. 3145 ID: fce6fd


Speaking of Rain, by the way... I had the idea that, maybe, she and the last of the "true" Vaess met, and fought? It'd help keep her badass meter up to have exchanged blows with a lost-age draconian-made supersoldier.

The idea I have is that one of the Vaess survived Oppos' fall, leading the retreat of the survivors from the city. As the last of his kind, he'd have gone out to keep the draconian legacies in order himself, possibly beginning a tradition of faestir mercenaries traveling and hiring themselves out to support the home city. Being hired could have put him on the lines against an early advance of Rain's campaign and given them a chance to duke it out. Perhaps it was even her who finally killed him, adding to the rest of the world's "oh holy shit this is trouble".

If that were the case, it might add a neat little bit of poignancy if that was when she started using a spear as her main weapon.
No. 3146 ID: 1f9939

>>a fantasy setting has way more variables and situations to be accounted for than Sun Tzu had to deal with.

You underestimate Sun Tzu my friend.

Faestir doctrine probably contributed to their defeat during the uprising. They are a fast-moving, hard-hitting force. Being British they take their doctrine from the Empire and SAS. Understand the strategic situation and hit with decisive force at the enemy weak points, political and/or military.

The uprising? There was no center of gravity. Just thousands of kobold kamps throwing themselves at you with the certain knowledge that the thing called Tiamat would treat them worse if you didn't. Take out the right point and you can normally disrupt enemy morale and battle plans. The events surrounding the uprising were not normal.
No. 3147 ID: fce6fd


I have greatest of respect for Sun Tzu. I am merely operating under the assumption that he didn't really expect to fight laser-eyed dragon moles.
No. 3150 ID: fce6fd

So, to shift topic a lot... I was thinking of the Vaess, then thinking if there were any other draconian servitor races that would have survived, maybe even some made to act as soldiers in the last war, like the Vaess were. Then I thought: vampires.


See... recently, I sat through a LP of Soul Reaver 2 (having played the first one on DC long ago) and it occurred to me that their vampires were a little less... well ok, the blood-cursed blue angels thing has its own lack of charm, but I saw some potential. What if we had a species made by the draconians - not necessarily angel-things, we can be creative - who after the war were left orphaned. Perhaps they betrayed their maker, at Tiamat's urging most likely, and were cursed by them on their death; or maybe they just survived their creator's demise and she recruited them afterwards (and gave them a blood curse as part of her general bitchiness). They'd become her divine planar servants, basically, and I imagine she'd have others similarly recruited from draconic remnants - an eclectic mix of different servants with no unifying theme would match her patchwork madness.

To mix it up a bit, we could make them not actually dependent on blood - it just keeps them powerful and looking good. With the ideas I've got currently (feel free to shoot them down), they mutate over time, so we can get the "clans with different abilities/weaknesses" trope in there - enough blood, perhaps a literal blood bath, would allow them to return to their original state, which is most powerful and which they'd like best. But the blood curse is also what causes the mutation, so the more blood they drink the faster they'll degenerate into mutated beast-things. The lack of actual need also opens the idea that there are "good" vampires running around, but they'd be weaker and ugly (the emaciated corpse look Kain had going in the aforementioned SR games would be pretty cool), which may shift away some of the mary-sue-renegade-ism, though they'd still be powerful enough to move them out of player hands.

To match the whining for a playable version, we could have the equivalent of planetouched descendants like tieflings, maybe racial feats for normal people to represent even more distant heritage, maybe a prestige class to turn oneself into the real deal.

I know this probably won't be a very popular idea, but we do have a broad-spectrum fantasy setting going, so we might as well put our own twist on a classic horror entity.
No. 3151 ID: fce6fd

>the emaciated corpse look Kain had going

Make that the one Raziel had and you've got a better deal.

So, if they were originally a breed of lifewarped warriors, what would their purpose be to have ended up with the traditional vampire powers? Perhaps they were some sort of ninja. Night-dwelling, strong and agile, can turn into mist/shadow/animals... sounds about right. Then the sunlight thing could be a forced secrecy measure on the part of their maker - a strong enough light to see them properly in would force them to discorporate into mist or something. If you're going with inspirations from the Legacy of Kain series, you could also give them the wings (for infiltration) and telekinesis (for manipulating objects with revealing themselves).
No. 3152 ID: 7d87d9

Chryssalids?! ARE YOU NUTS?

Oh... wait... they attack like them Or do they have pet grinbugs?
No. 3153 ID: 7d87d9

Also how would that tactic work out.

Explain it to someone who doesn't know the terror of those fuckers at night.
No. 3154 ID: 1f9939

My ehhhh meter is taching out!

We already have necromancy and all the complications thereof. We already have night-hunting queens of Lindwurm (gnolls). Not seeing what mist-people add.
No. 3155 ID: fce6fd
File 126132074255.jpg - (53.83KB , 395x472 , Raziel_doodle.jpg )


Well, 1) the vampires wouldn't really have anything to do with necromancy - they're just an engineered fantasy race with freaky blood-magic ninja stuff going. 2) They wouldn't really be common, less a "we don't go out after sunset" thing and more like demons, but not outsiders and without the moral certainty. If a vampire looks good, then they're both powerful and evil, and they chose to be so, which adds a little bit of texture to their atmosphere. It'd be a big deal if even one of them showed up, easily the big bad of a "mysterious events" campaign. If we did allow there to be "good" vampires who were weaker and who looked like glowy-eyed muscular cadavers like Raziel here, they would make neat and easily temporary allies for PCs.

Or we could make those the default vampires. That could be sort of cool.
No. 3156 ID: 488063

Well, it adds an element of interest to go with the other different takes, like the orcs.
No. 3163 ID: 96dac0

I haven't poked my nose in here in a while, so pardon the great wall of text.

>Can't figure out where to put the Toltecatl or Doobies. I mean, they must have resisted the Empire a little, at least, but how?

Toltecatl are more stealthy, I'd think. They live in a swamp, and only they and the doobies are really familiar with that environment, so they're likely to use it to their advantage. This means floating below the top of the water like a gator, for example. They've likely also got a very solid grasp of poisons, considering their environment, their lifewarping, and their generally massive knowledge base.

Doobies can get chopped to shit and not really get hurt by it. They likely fought as individuals, seeking glory, sort of like romanticized vikings.

I would like to remind you, though, that they probably didn't do a lot of fighting. They live in a swamp. Or two conjoined swamps, scholars disagree on the distinction. Regardless, most of the northern sergal warriors had never seen a swamp. And there's no way in hell they could get dullettes in there, which were likely the primary beast of burden in the supply train.

>Doobies: ... Fuck if I know. Warspoons? Hooked Hammers?
I would imagine they use natural weapons. Which would be nonlethal, technically, but they can hit pretty hard.

Solaris has knights. Gorgossa gets some sort of samurai-type horse dudes. Achaea needs Homeric heroes.

>Kobolds: Um... Rocks?
primitive spears and javelins, stone age-style axes and maces. Probably macahuitls.

>Toltecatl: Spears, weird swords, and buggered-up exotic weapons. Also nets.
Probably they use some cruel-ass long knives. Nets are a must, but I'm thinking they use them primarily from ambushes and traps.

I'm thinking no. They strike me as fighting more like inner city niggers and general undesirables. After all, that's essentially what they are.


>Wila: One, they've failed by it getting this far. In which case, where are your supply trains?
These guys would probably revert to their historical combat methods in a serious war, which makes them the VIKING POWAH guys.

>Faestir: The Dancers and the College of War.
Corgyn: Minor Wisemen and Feylocks.
I'm thinking scrap this in exchange for what we've done since.
>Doobies: ???
If we like the fluff where they're Gentry who've become mortal (I do, but I'm not sure of general opinion) then it makes sense that any magic they wield would reflect that.

>DORFS: Magi-Generals, the Council, and the Wise Guild.
Sounds good. People's thoughts?

>Gnolls: Shamans.
Yeah. We have a bit here, but we could use more.

>Goblins: The Hunters in the Dark, and the Preservers. The latter studies necromancy to better counter it.
I don't like either of these very much, but I can't say why.

>Toltecatl: Too many to count. Ruled by Archivists.
I'm thinking Archivists are the only ones.

>Sergals: Part of the Experts Division, along with engineers, sculptors, etc. Have supremacy in their field of study, but only then.
Sounds good, I think it's in now.

>Sidhe: Lifewardens (druids who make sure lifewarping doesn't go too far) and the Invisible College (Floating crystal castle that trains wizards.)
Let's fluff these?

>Wila:Very few, mostly in raider groups as a counter to casters they might find.
Should there be any?
No. 3165 ID: 96dac0

I was at first wary, but your modifications make it good. We should have some sort of page on the comparatively minor Draconian creations.

Orcs are generally retarded shit, thought there was a thread that provided an interesting zen take recently on /tg/.

They're just one idea of interesting things the Draconians left behind. We need more such ideas, and none of them are canonically true or untrue, merely suggestions.
No. 3166 ID: 488063

Orcs as in the roving oozes made of stagnant undead water version.

>Never seen a swamp
They've probably covered it in the training, but there's nothing in the Archives worth slogging through the entire Toltecatl race plus a horrible swamp to get to, and the Doobies live in a miserable hellhole.

>Doobie War
Stone-headed spears and completely ridiculous contraptions powered by muscle. While the invading army is collectively facepalming at the giant mired and collapsed hamster-wheel with fifteen struggling doobies loudly arguing over who is to blame, some lucky git gets a few stabs in. I see them mostly defended by the fact that no one wants to stay in the presence of a doobie for more than a few seconds, crazed cultists making suicide charges, and bloody persistence.

Weighted nets and deep pools. Perhaps a phrase commonly translated as 'invading' means 'feeding the swamp'? Also yes, poisons.

Maybe take another Aztec note and have huge featheredy headdresses with reed supports to intimidate opposing forces? Squabbles might even be settled by whose giant fluffy thing is bigger.

Keeping it naval if possible, otherwise... How did the old-timey Elves(Pre-divide) get shit done in war?

What do we have on them so far? I postulated the existence of bards, Pariahs (Needs a better name. Jester? Fool?) and some kind of village council, but I think the traditional methods of magic they'd see would make practitioners insane.

I've been going on the rule that any piece of fluff with the doobies should make the reader facepalm at least once. It should be a requirement for playing one to cause the same to happen at least once per session, too. I just haven't seen anything agonisingly stupid enough to suggest as the fluff for their magic.

So the Caele applied magic to everything, and the Wila to nothing... And the Sidhe applied it only to the pursuit of perfection.

I think that while they might reject any kind of magic out-of-hand, the Arcana business is too lucrative. A few would show an aptitude, or use it to get ahead, and I think they'd have a few, but a great deal fewer than other races. It could be the other thing that gets you kicked out of society than religious openness.
No. 3168 ID: 96dac0

>Orcs as in the roving oozes made of stagnant undead water version.
I seem to have missed that. Can you perhaps link me to something on that, or at least point me in the right direction?

>How did the old-timey Elves(Pre-divide) get shit done in war?
I don't believe we've delved into it yet, but I'd imagine they'd have had a fairly even force division, akin to the sort of things one might see in WHFB, and similar.

>What do we have on them so far? I postulated the existence of bards, Pariahs (Needs a better name. Jester? Fool?)
Fool is best of those. Is this, perchance, something else that would be best treated as a custom class? I posit that it is. If things continue in this manner, we may even be able to cut out vancian magic altogether. We've got a long way to go first, though.

>and some kind of village council, but I think the traditional methods of magic they'd see would make practitioners insane.
I agree.

>I've been going on the rule that any piece of fluff with the doobies should make the reader facepalm at least once.
Overtly, yes. But underlying fluff should make sense and be consistent. The fact that few or no mortals know that stuff is irrelevant.
I suggest we take a cue from Slowpoke's quest here, incidentally.

All else you say, I agree with.
No. 3170 ID: 1f9939

>>Maybe take another Aztec note and have huge featheredy headdresses with reed supports to intimidate opposing forces? Squabbles might even be settled by whose giant fluffy thing is bigger.

That works for me. Kobolds are supposed to be ridiculous, but with an undercurrent of "Dude, check the stats, they can be dangerous."

Kobold legends probably still speak of Grand Holy Emperor Potmaker the First who discovered stilts. Sadly his reign ended because, you know. Stilts. Kind of easy to knock over.

>>I've been going on the rule that any piece of fluff with the doobies should make the reader facepalm at least once.

An excellent rule. While nobody would disagree that doobies are the greatest creation of all time, that very perfection inspires anger, disgust and incredulity amongst the lesser races. Their origin fluff should be vague and multiple, but always chafing at the minds of lesser mortals.

As for the Toltecatl and Doobies escaping Sergal domination? They live in a swamp. Sure they could have been conquered (maybe) but is it worth it?

At the peak of Sergal influence they were smacking down the Sidhe and daring the humans in... (whoa, 1d4chan is slow tonight) in Moesia to defy them. They had bigger things on their plate.
No. 3172 ID: bd57bb
File 126195933654.jpg - (285.25KB , 708x980 , Doobie Main Battle Tank.jpg )

>While the invading army is collectively facepalming at the giant mired and collapsed hamster-wheel

No. 3177 ID: 1f9939

Many Doobies died ushering in the New Year with their pyrotechnic hamster wheel.

So we should all celebrate! Happy New Year tgchan.

So, dueling schools. Two handed v. rapiers v. bastard swords v. foils. Any snootiness about combat styles and weapon choices in the Unified Setting?
No. 3178 ID: 96dac0

Fire doesn't really hurt doobies much.

I think there should be people who duel with katanas. The reason being, if you wear metal armor they're next to useless, so in a setting where people mostly wear metal armor to war, but many didn't used to, that's where it would naturally fall. If people wear armor when dueling, it would work out well.
No. 3188 ID: abe6e4


>I seem to have missed that. Can you perhaps link me to something on that, or at least point me in the right direction?

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3976072/ is where the discussion concluded I think.

>Keeping it naval if possible, otherwise...

The old ways of Wila war involved berzerker charges while riding rhemorhaz and giant crabs. They used to be nordic feral nomads, remember?

>How did the old-timey Elves(Pre-divide) get shit done in war?

I think most wars, pre-divide were fought with massive amounts of magic. Actually, who would they even be fighting? Draconians? Gentry? Each other? In terms of fighting the "lesser" races, I see the elves employing shock-and-awe tactics by using lifewarped warbeasts in lieu of elven soldiers. Taking casualties in a war with savages is so embarassing!

>dueling styles

Solusian knights have developed dueling styles for every type of weapon imaginable, and several new types of weapons have been developed simply to be impressive in a duel (and completely useless in actual combat). There are hundreds of variant dueling rules among the orders and if you get challenged you need to know them thoroughly, or you'll get disqualified for using an illegal technique/stance/weapon or simply run through since you thought it was going to be a fistfight and the other guy brought daggers.

Barthelmia has a lot of dueling, out in the colonies it's a more no-nonsense, one of us needs to die, sort of affair. Rapier and dagger is usually favored, some human sailors prefer to duel with short axes.

Gnoll tribes in the have ritual fights to establish tribal power relations and fertility rites. Fights are between alpha females using clubs and maces.

Faestir have outlawed duels to the death, and their duels are highly ceremonial affairs. Sergal codes of honor dating to before Rain's era require duelists to fight without weapons or armor, using only teeth and claws.

The famed Sidhe martial artist Sinaelin the Younger once traveled the world, intent on mastering every type of weapon and form of war that is possible. He spent a hundred years as a mercenary and assassin, fighting with different races, weapons, and beasts. The Sinaelite style that he developed forms the basis of current Sidhe martial doctrine. In its simple form, it contains techniques and maneuvers for single as well as group, mounted as well as on-foot combat, and the basic attack-defense patterns (including dodging stances based on probability calculations) takes about 50 years for a talented student to learn. In its complex form, it also encompasses tactical doctrine, battlefield formations, and fortifications.
No. 3263 ID: 1f9939

>>The famed Sidhe martial artist Sinaelin the Younger once traveled the world, intent on mastering every type of weapon and form of war that is possible.

And it isn't a bad read. The parts that you can find anyway. While most of Sinaelin's work has been translated into various languages, there are still tomes held closely by the Sidhe as state secrets and/or not for the unworthy. Not to mention all the alleged "Lost Scrolls of Sinaelin" floating around.

Not a bad read, but not a great one. If you are looking for strategy, there is a lot of talk about stances. If you want sword tricks, there is a lot of talk about "the greater battlefield." Plus a lot of mystic mumbo-jumbo about what is reflected within is mirrored from the side or some shit. Devotees claim it is all related and no part can be ignored.

Humans prefer "Reflections On My Career," the memoir of Admiral Geralt Barthelme. It's not only a ripping-good adventure tale about the newly formed Solaris' days of exploration, it is also filled with practical tips. How to fight, when to retreat and the primacy of logistics in all calculations.

"War is chaos. A ship at sea is chaos. A port is chaos. Life is chaos. The many influences of environment, chance and a multitude of actors and other influences render the variables so great that they are beyond reckoning. But life is lived. A port functions. A ship at sea sails. And wars are won."
No. 3294 ID: 96d52a


Faestir, on the other hand, are so saturated with military guidance that they prefer The Adventures of Doctor Bellomore, Gentleman Explorer, a series of riveting journals in which the esteemed Doctor visits many far-flung, exotic lands, accompanied by his trusty sidekick Rani, learning the ingenious ways in which the natives cope with their environment and then amazingly becoming much better at them than the people who taught him. And solving mysteries.

While never, ever losing his hat.
No. 3295 ID: 96d52a


Non-faestir tend to find these stories very dry, but an avid reader can learn much from, for example, the 13 pages of Doctor Bellomore and the Pickaxe Murders that are spent describing how dwarven hunters track, capture, clean, cook and eat cave animals.
No. 3320 ID: 1f9939

For some reason I am thinking the Adventures of Doctor Bellomore are quite popular with the dwarves of Everoc. Mostly the younger ones as the idea of fictitious(?) literature probably strikes most dwarves as scandalous. At least the Bellomore series is mostly grounded in fact and observation. More so at any rate than the other silver novels being cranked out by Vyntril publishing houses.
No. 3321 ID: f52552

Silver Novels, copper pamphlets... Sunbound Tomes?
No. 3324 ID: 6c28cf

Here's an interesting idea - You know how elves are often described as having "ivory towers"? Perhaps we could make that literal. Some few hundred years ago, one of the Sidhe designed a plant/creature/thing that would live in the ground and grow a huge column of ivory, which was then hollowed out and carved.

How pervasive this should be, I don't know. Perhaps the very wealthy have them. Perhaps there is only one - the one made by the individual who designed them. Failed prototypes may dot the landscape around it. Perhaps there is a city of them, made of failed prototypes, or made of others which he used to finance his endeavors.

It could be a minor cultural note, a dungeon, or a uniquely flavored city.

No. 3326 ID: e56983


It'd make a nice palace for the Druidic arm of Sidhe government, I think. A sort of Druid Forbidden City, made of some kind of lifewarped coral/tree thing.
No. 3333 ID: f52552

There's the really huge ones that only Awesomepants McToomanyvowels could grow, then the cheapass version that involves splicing a kind of shiningly white tree into one growth and planting them in a circle.
Or is the large kind just too expensive to make?
No. 3334 ID: 6c28cf

That spelling is to anglican for me. Perhaps "Osmpents McTumenivahwls.
No. 3352 ID: 1f9939

Well this is one way to spend a Saturday night. The next few posts are all about fluffing out the Great Houses (aka dominant powers) of the Wila Republic. I'm going to post these up on the wiki when I am done here, but they aren't set in stone. Changes, criticism and contribution are welcome.

The following was created by poring over the unified setting threads archived on suptg, with a healthy dose of interpolation and the occasional making up of shit.
No. 3353 ID: 1f9939

There are currently six Great Houses. Two are northern and are composed of ignorant, savage barbarians. Three are southern and are composed of effete, decadent swindlers. The sixth exists in a legal limbo and is known as the Lost House, despite openly conducting business like all the others. Questioners asking how an existing government can be considered lost and what they did to deserve the status are treated as if they have committed a horribly embarrassing faux pas and get no answers.

Great Houses are named after the dominant city in their area of influence.

House Chernogbog (Northern)
An icy marshland. The natives are considered somewhat slow by the other Wila. When they can be bothered to reply, the people of Chernogbog say they don't talk much. There isn't much call for conversational skills in their homeland, but it does produce the best hunters and wilderness scouts of the Wila Republic. Their ability to operate in hostile environments without support, and the demand for those skills by other houses has given them an enviable information network. They are also highly practiced in the Wila arts of anti-magic.

House Rugiewit (Northern)
A proud military house and an upstanding pillar of the Republic. Or to put it another way, the center of the Wila's abominable history of piracy and raiding. Blessed with sheltered ports, plenty of timber and a central location, Rugiewit raiders terrorized every country their ships could reach until the southern Houses put a brake on things. Now they are the shipyard and recruiting center of the Republic as ambitious sons and daughters of Rugiewit seek their fortune in the Republic military.
No. 3354 ID: 1f9939

House Ziwia (Southern)
A strong agricultural region, often called the "Baetica of Zirnitraog." Their volcanically fertilized soil produces bounteous crops, allowing them to export both food and influence across the Republic. However the volcanic ash emitted by the Water Forest is a mixed blessing, bestowing the occasional life-warping magic alongside fertilizer. The Ziwians have capitalized on this by capturing, studying and using the occasional bizarre mutant in the alchemical arts at which they also excel.

House Ozwiena (Southern)
House Rugiewit may be the Republic's biggest ship builders, but nobody gets more use out of them than the Ozwienans. They were traders before trading was cool and excell at the mercantile and diplomatic arts. The Wila language draws no distinction between commercial and political negotiations and a member of House Ozwiena will be present at almost all negotiations inside or outside the Republic. If not present in an official capacity they will still show up and offer to handle the entire thing at half the price.

(On a side note: The Wila language draws no distinction between commercial and political negotiations and there is only a subtle distinction with the words denoting the pimping of prostitutes, marriage negotiation and murder-for-hire. Non-native speakers should be precise with suffixes.)

House Peklenc (Southern)
"Take it to Peklenc." is a common Wila saying. It is the equivalent of "In the name of all the gods I worship and on my sacred honor, what I say to you is true or may I be stricken dead!" but since Wila would still laugh at that there was a market opportunity. That has been filled by the arbitrators and appraisers of Peklenc. An early trading port, since eclipsed by Ozwiena, they sold their expertise and later their impartiality to other Wila.

The presence of a Peklenc arbitrator is welcomed in most dealings as their expertise and neutrality makes things run smoother. Less welcome are the rare, golden-masked arbitrators who's calling isn't bound by contract. Instead they mete out justice as they see fit, often harshly.

While the major Houses grumble and complain there is little they can do. The Judges (as called by the humans) are beloved by the wila people and operate outside of Peklenc authority. Most Wila chalk up an encounter with a Judge as the cost of doing business, as one would an encounter with a storm or a gelatinous berg.
No. 3355 ID: 1f9939

House Zorya (Lost)
The lost house. Their home city attempted to conquer all of Zirnitraog and was destroyed in a bloody civil war. The scattered survivors are a death cult/assassin guild plotting to control the Great Council of Houses for an unknown, but sinister goal.

Well, that is how they are portrayed in the sensationalist fiction of Vyntril. The reality is quite different. House Zorya is officially known as "The Lost House" but that doesn't seem to slow them down at all. Technically the lands surrounding Zorya are under the administration of arbitrators from House Peklenc, but they seem content to let the people manage themselves. Operating under restrictions that are never discussed with outsiders, the people have dedicated themselves to support of the arts, medicine and learning. Zoryan theaters, hospitals and universities have spread across Zirnitraog and can be found in the territory of all the Great and most of the Lesser Houses.

Despite their official status of being "The Lost House" Zorya still has a representative in the Great Council of Houses, but is distinguished as being the Speaker for Zorya instead of the Speaker of Zorya.

The Great Houses and Religion
All of the Great and Lesser Houses claim that they are the true keepers and main influencers of the Wila faith. While strange to outsiders, the Wila are a pious people and treat their religion with great seriousness and pride. It is difficult to sort out the conflicting claims as Wila doctrine changes over time and is opaque to outsiders. To date no outside religious scholar has been able to determine the message of "Zantos and The Triplet Courtesans" which seems to be a bawdy romp currently packing theaters in the Wila Republic.

The Great Houses and Wila Assassins.
While their spheres overlap to a great extent, the Great Houses rose to prominence by specializing in a particular field. This has lead some to speculate that one of the Houses specializes in the art of murder-for-hire (at which the Wila infamously excel). No house will admit to sheltering assassins, but they are all suspect. Chernogbog has the best hunters, Rugiewit the best soldiers, Ziwia's mastery of alchemy makes them the best poisoners, Ozwienans have the skills to get close to a target, nobody would ever suspect a Peklenc and Zorya is always suspect.

Wila when asked always laugh when pressed on the issue and dismiss the entire idea as ridiculous and a bit insulting, but if you are serious then they might know a guy who knows a guy. No promises of course and they will need a little cash up front to grease the wheels....
No. 3363 ID: 00b11b

Looks pretty solid, in terms of content. I fixed a couple spelling errors and spelling imprecisions, and the format is a bit of a clusterfuck, but content is all great.
Only thing I can think of Peklenc's description is too absolute. Even in Peklenc, there should be commoners and miscreants.
No. 3442 ID: f52552

Loving the houses.

Here's a thought I just had.
We've got near to nothing on the southern sergals.
Just that they got stomped on and bits are running around in the desert.
Are we talking Irish bedouin here, with a focus on the day to keep them separate from the gnolls, or are they eroding free numbers native americans, or something else?
I'm thinking they'd get very shirty over their customs and people, since they've lost so much.
But we don't have any customs for them.
Also will show a rough idea of what the northerners were like before Rain.
No. 3446 ID: 96545b


I think something like the Elves in Dragon Age: Most of the Sailzani Sergals are slaves, born and raised in a culture that considers them second-class citizens, a servant caste, while a few free nomadic tribes eke out a meager existance in the desert, trying to preserve their old shamanic culture. The wiki mentions the Sergals used to have a lot of healers and shamans, maybe the free Sailzani still do.
No. 3447 ID: 1f9939

Don't know much about the sergals, but can't we have both?

The more north you get into the conquered south, the more assimilated they are into Rain's insane realm. Just a few wandering poets and underground meetings challenging the status quo. The southern extremes are still free and true to the old ways, raiding upon an enemy they never surrendered to. Of course that far south is practically gnoll territory so nobody cares.
No. 3450 ID: f95872

In the beginning, the gods were alone. But they desired to do more. However, they lacked anything upon which to work, and so the Earth laid down in the sea, saying "work upon my belly". And so they did.

First, the Earth created plants and forests, that they might take strength from his body, and become large and resilient. He spread them everywhere upon his body, save for his belly.

The Sun spread wide a great desert upon the Earth's belly, for it was the only place that remained, and the sun wanted it to remain bare to her caresses.

The Sky, seeing that all of the Earth had been covered, instead created Clouds, to flow above the Earth, and see all that there was to see.

The Moon saw that there was no room left above the Earth's skin, and so he reached inside of the earth, and aroused him, and caused the great mountain ranges to rise up. And then the Moon withdrew, leaving the Earth unfulfilled, and the mountains remained standing.

And none know what the Darkness made.
No. 3451 ID: f95872

Now, after time passed, the Gods grew bored, for though they had each created a thing, their creations were inert. And so the Moon said "let us make beasts, to populate the Earth.

And so the Moon created wolves and deer, to run across through the Earth's forests and live.

And the Earth created the burrowing creatures, mice and moles and ants. And they dug into the skin of the Earth, but their claws were weak, and they could not dig deeper

And the Sky created birds, to sleep in the forests of the Earth, but fly above them in wakening.

And the sun created the Auroch, and his children, the cattle and oxen. And they ate bushes and knocked down trees, so that fields grew. And this troubled the Earth, but he did nothing.

And none knew what the Darkness made.
No. 3452 ID: f95872

Now, the gods saw that the animals were not inert, and that pleased them, but the animals were simple. And so the Sky said "let us create thinking creatures, that they may make their own plans to amuse us, and we will not need to.

And so the Sky created the Elven folk, and put them on a small land, that they could fill, and gave them a strong will to excel in their endeavors.

And the Earth created the Dwarves, and cast them about the mountains, and made them swarthy and strong, and steady in their minds.

And the Moon created the Gnolls, and made them fierce, and vicious, and rapine, and he put desire in their loins.

And the Sun made the Humans, and gave them the desire to rule, and to shape other things to their will. And the sun put the Humans away from the other races.

And none know what the Darkness made.
No. 3453 ID: f95872

Now, the races went forth and did as they would, and the Gods were pleased. And yet, the Races spent much time searching for food, or striving against the beasts. And so the Sun said "let us give them gifts, that they may overcome their environment."

And so the Sun gave unto the Humans Wheat, that they might grow it any place there was water but no forest. And so the humans began to clear away forest, and grow wheat. And the Earth was displeased, but he did nothing.

The Moon saw this, and gave Weapons to the Gnolls. And they used their weapons to kill beasts that would threaten them, and to take from the other races.

The Earth looked unto the dwarves, and gave them Picks, that they might burrow deep into his flesh, and perhaps fulfill him and allow the mountains to fall.

The Sky saw these gifts, and in her pride, sought to do better. And she gave the Elven folk Magic, that they might overcome everything. And yet the magic was to mighty, for the elves could scarcely control it. But those who mastered it were the mightiest of all mortals, and so the Sky was satisfied.

And none knew what the Darkness gave.
No. 3454 ID: f95872

Now, the gods saw that with their gifts, the races thrived. But they also saw that the races traded, and in sharing their gifts, they all became powerful. And so the Darkness said something, though none know what it is, and the Gods decided to work with each other to create the greatest race.

The Moon forged a body, strong and mighty.

The Earth armored that body in scales with the might of his bones.

The Sun gave them Fire, that they could work metal and make food better.

The Sky was upset, for she had thought to make the Elves the greatest. And so she resolved to give the greatest gift, she gave Magic greater even than that of the elves.

And none know what the Darkness gave.

And the new race, the Draconians, took the gifts of the other races, and made them all the greater, for with fire and strength they made better weapons than the Gnolls and better picks than the Dwarves, and with strength and scale, they took more land than the humans, and with magic, they were more favored than the elves, and so they built a great and mighty empire.

And the Gods were satisfied.
No. 3464 ID: 1f9939

Nice, I like the way the personality of the gods comes out in their actions. The fickleness of the moon, the uneasiness of the earth and the way the darkness emerges as a very powerful figure (he must be to keep his secrets) but not a negative or evil one.
No. 3499 ID: 1f9939

I've been on a mafia bent of late and thought about how they manifest in the unified setting.

I'm talking organized crime. Smuggling, racketeering, protection, loan-sharking. Every culture has a mob and they express in different ways.

Goblins: Probably deal the most with organized crime. Most of them live in despised ghettos with legitimate governments deaf to their pleas. The Organization is probably indistinguishable from the Remnant Government still clinging to a few islands in the Sea of Ghosts. If you want to do business in Goblintown you deal with The Organization. They are the only thing resembling government or justice most goblins will ever experience. The one thing they don't do is loan-sharking. The goblins discovered the power of banking long before the other races and their counting houses remain powerful and respected, even if the rest of their race is despised and exploited. It's just impossible to compete with banks that have lasted for centuries while financing shipyards in areas that are recurrently scourged by pogroms.

The Organization excels at the one thing that still gives the goblins a shred of power. Trade. Specifically illegal trade. Whatever you want, whether it is dried lotus petals, the latest Doctor Bellomore or saucy Vyntrillian novel and/or a genuine Sidhe-forged blade? You can find it in Goblintown.

Sidhe: Sidhe insist they have no crime and refer you to the lyrics of their national anthem as proof: "And live in harmony, harmony - OH, LOVE!"

Wila: Like their pointy-eared cousins, the notoriously ruthless and rapacious drow also have no crime. Oh sure, there is the occasional drunken assault or pickpocket, but that sort of thing is frowned upon. The thief-catchers of the Wila Republic are vigilant and their cities are probably the safest in the world.

Unless somebody hires a pro to go after you. Then you are screwed. The Wila can honestly say they have little crime because little is actually illegal up there. Slavery, prostitution, usurious loans, and every other outrage imaginable are simply business. The Wila are a pragmatic people and see little point in denying their nature. These things will be done so it is best that they are done in the open. Sparse Wila law holds personhood and property inviolate so kidnapping and theft is at a minimum. Even if the victims can't post a bounty, there are plenty of thief-takers willing to go after the perpetrators for a share from the general fund. Assassination is simply not done as it exposes the hirer as low class and undeserving of respect. Accordingly all strange and mysterious deaths are the result of bizarre accidents or medical conditions. This should not be used to feed the absurd rumor that Wila assassins are the best in the world.

Humans: Ugh. Too many to list. Every one of their "Federated Kingdoms" has multiple, competing organized criminal organizations. But that's humanity for you, only half a continent and even the crooks can't get their act together. It's probably the worst in the colonies on Lindwurm where organized crime practically rules some of the Lawless Human Cities.

Gnolls: Their entire society is organized crime. Sleep all day, raid all night. The tribes bordering on the human colonies on Lindwurm have taken it up a notch though. Instead of killing and stealing everything that they find in their territory, they are taking payments for not killing and stealing everything in their territory.

Sergals: Vicious, murdering psychopaths. Every single one of them. This depraved race has obviously not shied away from the criminal arts. They flourish at it and spread lawlessness and corruption wherever they go. Liberal apologists will whine about understanding and point out that the distorted, militaristic society they inherited from Governor-General Rain left their society wide open to criminal exploitation of markets normally occupied by a robust private sector.

Those same cringing fur-lickers will say that the notorious reputation of sergal enforcers is only to be expected in a society where most of the population has spent a substantial proportion of their lives in the military. Then they will say that the current fad of other races hiring sergal enforcers is only to be expected with increased trade, a fearsome reputation and demonstrated combat skills. But they really want sergal fangs in all of our throats.

Well that's all I've got. Expansion is appreciated and I've got nothing for the Dwarves, Faestir, Toltecatl or (shudder) Doobies.

I'm pretty sure Kobolds aren't smart enough to understand crime.
No. 3500 ID: f95872

Dwarves have little crime, as criminals are beaten a set number of times with a war hammer. Only occasional violent rages, and violations of government orders ever tend to occur.

Faestir society heavily stigmatizes crime, and as such it is rarely seen. Convicted criminals are sentenced to banishment, and thus make up most of the adventuring population for that race. Even those suspected of crimes are heavily ostracized however, and some may choose a self imposed exile, though this is seen as an admission of guilt.

Doobie society, strangely, is rife with crime. Though they lack codified laws, doobies generally consider stealing to be taboo if they are the victim, and acceptable if they are the perpetrator, and feel that the item should be theirs for some reason.

I dunno about Toltecatl.

Also, the fact that you said the Sidhe have no crime, and that's actually in keeping with fluff seems bad to me.
No. 3502 ID: 1f9939

>>Also, the fact that you said the Sidhe have no crime, and that's actually in keeping with fluff seems bad to me.

Well they are the least fluffed of all the races. We have them as Romanesque (more Lucius Vorenus than Titus Pullo) perfectionists and that's about it. Outside of the elf-kicking which we all love to do.

Dwarves used to have little crime. That has changed. Except not really. Dwarves did bad things all the time, but it was chalked up to moods and madness (a surprisingly common problem in Everoc). Things are different now. Younger dwarves are reading fiction and expressing interest in undwarvenly pursuits like trade and logistics. Some of the Dwarven Lordships are muttering about the bad influence coming in from the Freeports.

I'm cool with the Faestir finding crime abhorrent. They are a race that thinks of themselves as against the wall (you have no idea how good you have it, the goblins think) and anything contra-society is almost as bad as walking around without a hat. In public!

But they must have secret vices, and a bunch of chimney-ninjas able to deliver such.

Doobies have actual laws? Well I suppose so. It would explain some of the increasingly shrill and unhinged letters from the late Professor Frey. Apparently doobie law is meted out in trial by combat. A horrific and blood-soaked event where limbs are not only hacked off and reattached, but reattached to a different person. All of it ending in an amicable handshake. Or so Frey claimed, but his mental-state at that point was questionable.

Corgryn! Forgot them. Mostly isolated villages without much opportunity for serious crime. But the idea of a fedora-wearing, stogie-smoking, Corgryn won't leave me.
No. 3503 ID: f95872

I don't know about laws as such, so much as impromptu prosecution. Lynching, vigilantism, whatever you feel like calling it. I'd say they've got a Lord of the Flies type of deal going on.
No. 3504 ID: 844d84


Corgyn have village councils that convene to determine guilt and mete out punishment. The worst possible punishment for a Corgyn is exile.

Toltecatl have very little criminal law, and insults/offenses to individuals are settled by ritualistic duals or tests of skill. They punish withholding and hoarding information harshly, though.
No. 3506 ID: f95872

Erm. Was referring to doobies here.
No. 3509 ID: 43d730

That could actually end up fairly scary if they had the regenerator complete lack of acceptable violence level thing going on.
Someone steals your prime banjo-playing spot? Rip of their legs and throw them into the swamp. Don't worry, they'll grow back.
Someone insults your performance? Break every bone in their body.
Someone implies that you might smell, just a little? Rip off large sections of their skin.
Perfectly normal infighting if your opponent can regenerate, but a possible reason why the cultists are so devoted.
Hmm... Where to work in a facepalm-worthy bit...

Separately, where do they get the banjos and tambourines? Both of those kinda require metal, and wouldn't hold up well in swampy conditions. Are they just mysteriously produced for humour reasons?
No. 3515 ID: 1f9939

>>Toltecatl have very little criminal law, and insults/offenses to individuals are settled by ritualistic duals or tests of skill. They punish withholding and hoarding information harshly, though

Makes sense. They are supremely adapted for their swampy homeland and have little in the way of property. Heck they are tough enough to survive anywhere and do. Status is handed out by the Great Librarians so that further reduces the chance for strife.

We've got the Toltecatl cultists who hold the unprogressive idea that bad knowledge exists and needs to be destroyed. Are there Library Cops hunting down this conspiracy or are they just another faction in the great catalog wars that are secretly fought amongst the scrolls and tablets of Rs?

Good insight on Doobies. I think trading for banjos and tambourines is a big reason you see Doobies outside their homeland. Of course the Doobies live for a long time and don't always understand trade so they adventure for a while to scrape up the cash needed to put together a cargo and return as a Banjo King (or Tambourine) King.

Doobies being the wisest, gentlest and most enlightened creatures in the setting are aware that other races do not have regeneration. This alone marks Doobies as most favored creation of the Gods, even if you ignore all their other awesome attributes. So even in Jir-Jira I don't see a lot of outsiders getting limbs ripped off. It does mean that when fighting does begin, even young Doobies (with lesser healing) throw themselves into combat with a nonchalance that lesser races chalk up to a complete ignorance of the dangers involved.

That isn't the case at all. Doobies don't fear violence because they grow up with it. Either the Doobies involved walk away amicably or the loser is instantly whisked away to spend an eternity with the Gods who love them.

We don't know much about Doobie religion, and it is probably best it stays that way, but do they think other races have an afterlife? They are pathetic, graceless creatures without the blessings of the Gods.
No. 3516 ID: 43d730

I like the idea of a hundred different factions all out for knowledge and scrolls, using poisons, stealth, and magic to cull the other factions.
And this is, of course, a giant political minefield for the players to frantically dance in.
Like the Sidhe politics only much more direct and deadly. Nothing gets people riled up like religion.
No. 3517 ID: f95872

>Are there Library Cops hunting down this conspiracy
I'd say not officially, though perhaps assassinations occur.

Well, we've got a bit of a notion that the sky is sort of heaven, and there's a sort of hell underground. We could suggest that great people become stars upon their deaths.
No. 3518 ID: 9aadac


Behamut and Tiamat have afterlives set for their followers. Bahamut magiced the last functional draconian city into another dimension and it became the "heaven" for his followers' souls. Tiamat did the same thing but her city is only half-functional and most of her followers' souls get shoved into being batteries or forced labourers for the rest of eternity; it's only if you're really strong and useful that you're allowed out to do other things.

Those could be fleshed out a bit, actually. I'd imagine Bahamut's city to be all justice and light and such, with big, reassuringly solid fortresses and towers, some gardens, glowing crystalline frippery and whotnot. Kinda like your typical dalaran-esque magic city, but with a touch more of a military, secure and prepared look to it. Add a bit of minis tirith in there. Lots of gold and white and silver. Some crystalline trams and teleporters and lifts and such for getting around. Lots of arcing bridges and skyways, lots of light. Lots of libraries and schools and training halls, so anyone who's after-lived there for very long is really skilled at lots of stuff. Very pleasant but also purposeful, Bahamut keepin' everything ready to roll if need be.

Tiamat's place would be like this post-apocalyptic cityscape, with an eclectic mix of different architectural styles; most buildings would be partially collapsed with supports of black metal girders and such jutting up skeletally, broad roads with fissures and rubble across them, a few suriviving and/or forcibly rebuilt towers and coliseums and such but even those would be cracked or have big patch-like lumps of sheet metal or stone fixed onto them. Some different sections of the city, one for each of Tiamat's heads maybe, each aligned with a different kind of malevolantly-manifested element. One part sunken into water, with all weeds and dark and melancholy and cold flooded passages and rooms, one part with all infernal engines and crackling half-broken machinery with arcs of lightning and such, one part frozen cold, half-buried in ice and rimmed with frost, one part on fire, et cetera. Lots of miserable scavenging souls fruitlessly trying to rebuild things under the whips of their superiors and still better off than the saps stuck into ice crystals and fire pits and so on to be afterliving magic power supplies. It would be hellish, but with a lot of variety, and the sense that it was something better once, long ago.

Possibly they would both be at war with each other.
No. 3519 ID: f95872

Wait, seriously? I've never heard of this before. It clashes horribly with the rest of the cosmology. When is this from?

Your city descriptions are quite good, I think, and fit well the, at least, perception of those entities. It goes a little too close to black-and-white morality for me though, since we can't really go into enough detail to make them other than they initially appear.
No. 3520 ID: 89c8a9


*chackety-chackety-chakety... click*



How does it clash, though? Draconians are awesome, Bahamut and Tiamat became gods, they have followers, they would want to keep their souls when they die for their own purposes. They were previously lords among their already-powerful race, and they had bodacious magical cities that they were in charge of. So why not? Carve out a little extradimenional niche and teleport your city to it, you probably didn't even have to be a god to do that, just a powerful draconian mage. It's totally believable.

Plus this way, we have extraplanar afterlives that are probably easier to get to and more fun for players to visit. And while black and white is there, I get what your saying, there is a touch of moral greyness in that Bahamut, the ostensibly good guy, wants his followers to be his soldiers and servants forever rather than having a plain ol' eternal reward; Tiamat's city, on the other hand, is ruled by a truly evil being and its inhabitants operate in evil ways, but the place itself is merely ruined and dangerous and may in fact have lost draconian technology that could be used for good buried somewhere in it. There could even be hidden outposts of other powers, Tiamat being too cr/lazy and disorganized to keep everyone out who's bonkers enough to try get in.

They're way less morally distinct than most other heavens and hells, especially when you take into account that neither Bahamut nor Tiamat actually require good or evil: Bahamut would accept anyone who will keep to his laws and be loyal to him, and Tiamat will take anyone she can control, the stronger the better.
No. 3521 ID: f95872

Oh, a single post a ways back. I thought you were saying it was some sort of substantial idea.

>How does it clash, though?
They clash thematically if they even exist. So far, everything great that is ever accomplished (on a historical scale) has ended in ruin. The setting allows the PCs to change that, or to succumb to it, or to ignore it and work politics or go adventuring in ways that don't relate to the flow of history. However, if we start allowing the Draconians to have wonders which truly endure extraplanar cities which somehow capture the souls of the dead - that counters that and leads to the following question - why are the Draconians gone? If they could cause the dead to get caught in an other dimension and they could interact across the border of that plane, how could they possibly fall? And if they could fall, how come their extraplanar cities did not?

It clashes more directly, though, in that it forces defined planes. So far, everything exists in mostly euclidean space. Except the fae. If we say that the Draconians can so easily violate the laws that govern the Unified Setting, and do as the Five Gods (or one, if you're Aurelian) did and create worlds, then how come they couldn't tear the fae to shit?

>So why not? Carve out a little extradimenional niche and teleport your city to it, you probably didn't even have to be a god to do that, just a powerful draconian mage. It's totally believable.
Except that so far, we have no true extradimensional anything. Even the greatest of the gods couldn't, or didn't, do anything like that.

>Plus this way, we have extraplanar afterlives that are probably easier to get to and more fun for players to visit.
So... you feel that this is beneficial because it exacerbates one of the largest thematic flaws of DnD, that death has no potence? There are plenty of places players can go for sightseeing, they could even go to these same cities. But you're putting dead people in them, thus invalidating basically the entire spiritual and religious base of the setting, and then shoving them off into their own separate dimensions, thus obliterating cosmological unity, and giving the Draconians power over death itself, thus making their current history incoherent and senseless.

This might work well in a different setting, but it does not work in this setting.
No. 3522 ID: db1107


I'm not saying the draconians did that sort of thing, my idea was that Bahamut and Tiamat did, after they became gods - perhaps directly after. I wasn't appreciative of the set "no other planes" idea we had, so, sorry about that, but I didn't mean to imply that the attraction of souls was the result of draconian supermagic - just Bahamut and Tiamat's own divine natures, the super/natural bond they have to the souls of those who worship them.

It's nothing so cheap as just draconian juju - Bahamut and Tiamat (and Leviathan) were the last survivors of the draconians and, assuming I've understood everything this far, they basically absorbed all the remaining power of their species into themselves. It's not like anyone could have done it at any time. Then, as gods, they would have the same genesis powers as the other deities, so it's easy enough to say they could have made small worlds of their own - the gods made the world, right? Maybe they'd have to do some mythology thing, like craft it from their own breath, or anchor it on pieces they tore from each other in a final battle, or just mooch off the other gods, or something, but they could do it. Shouldn't be hard, then, to link them back to reality. Whether they literally became gods or are just worshiped as such is largely irrelevant; they're still divine enough to grant spells and so forth and so should be functionally identical; if they were any weaker the other gods could just punch all six of Tiamat's lights out.

So, then. Assuming the basic functionality of magic and such, souls, spirits and gods are (under certain circumstances) tangible things. If everything is in the one plane except for the Fae (and the dark things from outside, presumably), then where are the gods? Their actual physical location? Where would Bahamut and Tiamat be? Where, three-dimensionally speaking, do souls go?
No. 3523 ID: 21d969

It's all good and fun, except it's not certain if gods even exist in this setting and if they do, they definitely are not FR style exalted mortals. It's of the cornerstones if the setting and shouldn't be forgotten.
No. 3524 ID: f95872

This is all good stuff, but it simply does not work with the Unified Setting.

The biggest major issue is that the gods Do Not Work Like That. They do not have some sort of huge overarching effect on everything, a la the default DnD settings. Major gods - the ones recognized as divine by theistic religions - are not even confirmed to exist, from a scientific point of view.

>just Bahamut and Tiamat's own divine natures, the super/natural bond they have to the souls of those who worship them.
Divine beings do not necessarily have any bond with their worshipers.

>they basically absorbed all the remaining power of their species into themselves.
Tiamat absorbed four others into herself, using her own draconian magic. Bahamut was powerful just by virtue of being the best fucking mage ever.

>Then, as gods, they would have the same genesis powers as the other deities,
No, they would not. The five higher gods are the most powerful by far, and because of the vast difference in power, and the fact that they preceded the world, are the only ones perceived as divine by the Elves, Dwarves, Corgyn, Gnolls, and non-Furnshakti Humans. The other spirits, recognized as divine by animist religions, are generally incapable of any of what you are talking about. This is the category into which Bahamut and Tiamat fall.

>Whether they literally became gods or are just worshiped as such is largely irrelevant;
Largely, yes.
>they're still divine enough to grant spells and so forth
>and so should be functionally identical;
For crunch purposes yes, but not for fluff purposes. Compare this to how traditional DnD has different divine ranks.
>if they were any weaker the other gods could just punch all six of Tiamat's lights out.
Some could, yes. So far as we know, none have ever felt it necessary.

>the Fae (and the dark things from outside, presumably)
The dark things are the fae.

>then where are the gods? Their actual physical location?
The Earth is below your very feet. The sky is above your head, during the day. The Darkness is behind the stars at night. The Sun and the Moon chase each other around the Earth. Lesser gods tend to chill near their places of worship, or those items with which they are associated, when they have corporeal forms. Deities such as Bahamut and Tiamat likely reside in their fallen cities. Leviathan likely resides deep in the sea, since she sort of had a thing for water. Reis may reside within Opossokarthel. PROGRESS! resides within the Library of Rs, and is in the form of a statue of Quetzal, who he may or may not actually be. I think that's all the major deities?

None of them interact with mortals much.

>Where, three-dimensionally speaking, do souls go?
Nobody knows. This should be the case, though we should fluff out some relevant beliefs. So far as I know, the only suggestion regarding this is:
>We could suggest that great people become stars upon their deaths.

This basically says everything I wanted to say, but more succinctly.
No. 3525 ID: 43d730

Then have it be optional.
How the hell does one even get to the cities?
A portal at the bottom of the Ninefold Pit? Being tenth level, knowing the terrain, and casting Plane Shift?
At tenth level, you're playing merry hell with the setting just by existing. Going to a specific afterlife (or do they just have really cool castlethings in space?) isn't any more disruptive than being able to excavate more in a day than an entire fortress of dwarves, or kill someone by pointing at them.
For that matter, most of the power figures in the setting are sealed away or missing. Bahamut and Tiamat can be on their little extradimensional islands, the Jareths are stuck under the Illith who are not as disruptive, the Caele aren't coming down anytime soon, the Gentry are at least acting like they're confined to Everoc, and The Brutal General has buggered off for parts unknown.
I'd say it fits with the fluff. Just because the Last Scions have decent church followings doesn't mean that they have any power over where souls go. Heck, if you wanted you could have the cities be full of slightly different versions of Faestir and Kobolds, respectively.
No. 3526 ID: f95872

That sounds like it works okay to me.

>How the hell does one even get to the cities?
I imagine they'd just be sort of in the ninefold pit somewhere. The place is fucked up enough that you could lose a few cities there easily enough.

>At tenth level, you're playing merry hell with the setting just by existing.
If you're playing at that high a level, it should basically feel like Exalted. But I'd say that your examples all are less disruptive than planar shifting; they're stuff that the Draconians are known to have been capable of. At least the Nine.
No. 3527 ID: 43d730

Well, the Gentry have their own freaky noplace land.
I assume that the grand and omni-competent Draconians had Bags of Holding or an equivalent, yes?
Then the City of Silver Light and the City of Fivefold Shadows are linked to the Ninefold Pit, though they could technically (have been/will be/are currently/are going to be/might be) anywhere on Lindwurm.
Heck, there's the 10th level adventure seed.
The cities of Iskandar and Chaoskampf rise from the Ninefold Pit (Possibly from the actions of the players), and continue their millennial war in the skies, forcing the players to track down the Last White City of the Caele and use the power to shoot them both down and stop the war. Dodging cultists, the fallout of the Last Scale War overhead, and all the other weird shit going down, of course.
No. 3528 ID: f95872

>Well, the Gentry have their own freaky noplace land.
Either that, or they just sort of floated around in space. It's vague.

>I assume that the grand and omni-competent Draconians had Bags of Holding or an equivalent, yes?
Yeah, I suppose so.

Your adventure seed is awesome, by the way.
No. 3529 ID: 831a5e


Well... guess that's all reasonable, then. Maybe use the descriptions of the cities I wrote as for Bahamut and Tiamat's cities, wherever they are? Maybe they just teleported them to a remote location, rather than another dimension. That does leave the question of what they are actually doing, though.

So... which god died and had their corpse reanimated into Bongo Bongo?
No. 3530 ID: 43d730

I was meaning that the cities were in some kind of last-ditch-effort-to-save-them kitbashed Freaky Noplace Lands. Sealed away, like whatever's in the Water Forest, and the Jareths, and the Caele...

I thought it was one of the fey?
No. 3532 ID: f95872

>That does leave the question of what they are actually doing, though.
I'd say that's a question that can be answered (or not) by individual GMs.

>So... which god died and had their corpse reanimated into Bongo Bongo?
Several dead fae were stitched together.
No. 3536 ID: 0e8723


Is that what was agreed on? I thought having it be the corpse of a god would add to the blasphemous desperate horror of the thing. Who cares if you did that to a bunch of fae? No-one likes them, there's no innate horror or revulsion to doing bad things to them. Doing it with a god's body makes it way worse. Things were so bad at that time that that kind of unspeakable evil was necessary to save the world.

Plus it brings home the idea that the gods can, indeed, be killed, which raises the stakes.
No. 3537 ID: 1f9939

It was definitely a god or gods. It was described as the corpses of Outsider gods (the invaders) but it struck me that we have earth, sky, sun and etectera gods. But no ocean god. That seems a glaring omission.

If the Ocean God fell battling the Outsiders, and then his corpse was used as parts for Bongo Bongo that would explain the Great Fuckup. No matter how necessary it was to save the world a blasphemy like that could not go unpunished.
No. 3539 ID: f95872

>I thought having it be the corpse of a god would add to the blasphemous desperate horror of the thing.
How? Why?

>there's no innate horror or revulsion to doing bad things to them.
There is an innate horror and revulsion to doing anything with them.

>It was definitely a god or gods. It was described as the corpses of Outsider gods (the invaders)
It has been more than one of them, stitched together, since Bongo Bongo's origin was first discussed.

I had been under the impression that the Outsider gods and the Fae are the same entities. They are at the very least thematically identical, and it was based on this, in addition to some parallel concepts regarding the Draconian war, that I earlier stated that they had once existed in a place other than the corporeal universe of the Unified Setting. I would have to search the old sup/tg/ threads, if they are even still on the archive (many underwent substantial downvoting) to discern if they were originally intended to be different. If not, we would have some unfluffed and unconsidered outside force floating around and filling exactly the same thematic niche as they fae do. This is, needless to say, bad.

>it struck me that we have earth, sky, sun and etectera gods. But no ocean god. That seems a glaring omission.
At first thought, perhaps. But consider the following: The sky, earth, and darkness are all deities. In what then, are the deities suspended? It has to be something. I propose (and sort of proposed in my earlier writefaggotry) that they are over an endless ocean. Except Earth, who has lain down in it.

>that would explain the Great Fuckup
What? No. That doesn't even make any sense.

>No matter how necessary it was to save the world a blasphemy like that could not go unpunished.
So you're proposing that the Great Fuckup be a result of divine vengeance. This would singlehandedly turn the setting from a somewhat grimdark setting in which audacious claims to power have tragic consequences, into one where the man is keeping you down. Human error and sacrifice would be scrapped, instead suggesting that the goblins were magical badasses who could do anything, but the gods decided to be petty and kill them all.

In short, making the gods into humongous assholes for no reason is a bad idea.
No. 3540 ID: 96545b


You should note that the Fae in this setting are extradimensional horrors that cannot be reasoned with, and their intentions can barely be understood. They're closer to Yog-Sothoth than to the Goblin King.
No. 3541 ID: 0e8723

>How? Why?
Because gods, holy or unholy, are part of the natural order and the way the world works, and doing bad things to them is essentially the same as doing bad things to the whole world. The fae come from Outside, as aliens. Fae are "them" while gods are part of "us".

>There is an innate horror and revulsion to doing anything with them.
In-setting yes, but most players will just go "ok, so these are the bad guys" and will will feel no compulsion to spare them any sort of harm. Most fae will be perceived as facelessly evil entities and their deaths, or undeaths, are cheap.

>It has been more than one of them, stitched together, since Bongo Bongo's origin was first discussed.

I don't recall anything of the sort, back through this thread (though I may have missed it) back to the original discussions on 4chan's /tg/. In my mind he has always been the corpse of a god, killed by the outsiders, with its head cut off and its hands severed, reanimated to be bound deep beneath the earth to play the beat that would force the things from beyond to live and so to die.

I was under the impression that the Fae and the Outsiders were sort of the same class of entity, but the Fae were more "playful" and fucked around with things because it's fun, while the Outsiders are more lovecraftian horrors who just want to eat the world. One's like the Fae from Exalted, but more powerful, while the other's more like the Dungeon Dimension things from Discworld. Both essentially a borrowed form over nothingness, but of two different types.

If you wanted to use your "sea" analogy, then the Fae are like brightly-coloured singing birds that fly down to land on the Earth, pick off bits of his flesh and the worms that live on him to eat, then fly off, while the Outsiders are more like the slimy grey fish-things in the water. Usually they come one or two at a time, but sometimes whole flocks/shoals come in to feed and need to be fought off.
No. 3542 ID: 43d730

In either case, we'd need to establish why these creatures were going after the goblins and not the Sidhe or Faestir.
We could blame it on necromancy, as usual... or have some other thing have caused it.
Heck, the Faestir might have just finished losing Opossokarthel when the Great Fuckup happened.
Or was it simultaneous?
And what made the elves split?
Did it happen concurrently, or as a chain of events?
All I can say for certain from the fluff is that it wasn't the Illith that were the Outsiders, and probably wasn't any of the other empires.
No. 3543 ID: f48fbb


Probably the golbins' necromancy, the faestir fall and the elf split all happened at the same time independently (or through secret conspiracy), and this created a military, political and metaphysical vulnerability that the fae and/or outsiders took advantage of.

The ensuing wars could also account a bit for the faestir falling so nigh-completely. The loss of one city, no matter how immense or important, should not have that much effect on an empire. Much of the rest of the faestir probably fought with the goblins and, as front-line fighters, snuffed it.
No. 3544 ID: 844d84


>Probably the golbins' necromancy, the faestir fall and the elf split all happened at the same time independently

Actually, it didn't. See a brief discussion in these posts:

No. 3545 ID: f95872

>and doing bad things to them is essentially the same as doing bad things to the whole world
Doing bad things to every god ever would be. Doing a bad thing to, say, the spirit of a particular grove, well, that's no worse than cutting the trees down.

The Gentry, on the other hand tend to steal souls and children and whatnot. And if you raise one from the dead, well... you can start necrostorms and sink continents.

>The fae come from Outside, as aliens. Fae are "them" while gods are part of "us".
If some of the gods decide to arbitrarily sink continents, they quickly become "they" as well.

>Fae v. Outsiders
The Fae were originally conceived as being akin to the Fae from Changeling: the Lost, which would encompass both of those variations, and more. While they've taken on a bit of a different flavor (working together at times, for instance) I think we ought to stick with the broadness of focus.

>If you wanted to use your "sea" analogy,
I sort of meant it as a literal truth, actually.

>then the Fae are like brightly-coloured singing birds that fly down to land on the Earth, pick off bits of his flesh and the worms that live on him to eat, then fly off, while the Outsiders are more like the slimy grey fish-things in the water. Usually they come one or two at a time, but sometimes whole flocks/shoals come in to feed and need to be fought off.
Except that the difference between fish and birds is that one flies while one swims. Since this doesn't apply in this case, we may as well call them the same thing.


I like the idea of uncertainty in the fluff, though it also apparently leads to some confusion among those developing it.

>Probably the golbins' necromancy, the faestir fall and the elf split all happened at the same time independently
The Elf split happened significantly before the other stuff. When the Great Fuckup occurred, the Goblin nation caused the necrostorms, and the continent sank, and most of the Caele cities came crashing down, hitting like magic nukes.

>The loss of one city, no matter how immense or important, should not have that much effect on an empire.
Ever hear about Rome?
Of course, you don't lose a capital city without being majorly fucked up first. However, the forces of Tiamat had been majorly fucking the Faestir up.
No. 3546 ID: ec56f3

>Except that the difference between fish and birds is that one flies while one swims.

Yes. So? They both come from outside. A metaphor, which I was using, does not need hold up in every respect. The point I was going for is that one is prettier and more appealing and can get by better on land for a while, while the other chews on the bottom of the world and only comes up with a tide of the darkness which sustains them.

They're both the same thing, it's just that if we have two names for them they might as well bring some subtle distinction with them.

>And if you raise one from the dead

Here's a thing that bothers me. How can you raise them from the dead? They weren't really alive to begin with. They're immortal and soulless, empty things, imitations of flesh and blood. They're not real, neither mortal nor divine, just horror and madness moving around as a mask with no face, a character with no actor.

Why would necromancy, born as a corruption of death, a mockery of life, and tied to the concepts of poison and disease and fear, have any power over things that had no life to begin with?

>Ever hear about Rome?

Rome had been weakening politically and militarily for ages before it fell, and with it the Empire. The whole thing was ready to collapse. As it is now, the faestir are supposedly at the height of their power and competence when they fall down.

Plus, the roman empire by that point had long since ceased its military focus, settled into its territories and, as it were, lost its edge. The faestir, having the best military hat on them in the setting, should have contingencies, back-up plans, fallbacks or at very least the guts to take it on the jaw and stand up again without going all limp and useless. Stiff upper lip and all that.
No. 3547 ID: f95872

>They're both the same thing, it's just that if we have two names for them they might as well bring some subtle distinction with them.
Oh, I see. So Fae are pretty (Fairest, whatnot), Outsider Gods are horrendous (cthulhu and friends) Makes sense. They're all Gentry, and the terms are vague. I'd say it works.

>How can you raise them from the dead?
I dunno. I guess the Jareths were just that good, or something.

>As it is now, the faestir are supposedly at the height of their power and competence when they fall down.
We can assume that they descended significantly from that height while the vast legions of kobolds, empowered and made vicious by one of the most powerful Draconians ever, were attacking and presumably destroying vital Faestir assets.
No. 3550 ID: 43d730

>>How do they rise up
Well, it was a physical form, however mutable and unstable. Presumably, it had some kind of a biology, however warped and twisted. It seems to have taken the animating energies well, though...

>> Fall of the Faestir
I'd also like to suggest The Great Fuckup as a factor in the fall. The sky goes black, necrostorms suddenly rage across the lands, the seas rise... If that sort of thing doesn't signal an apocalypse of some sort, then I'd eat my hat. Possibly an explanation for why Tiamat was able to seize control of the Kobolds so easily? Possibly an explanation of why the cities fell (The emergency activations were against undead, not kobolds).
Also, I just had a thought.
Before the Great Fuckup, necromancy was safer, yes? Less in the way of necrostorms, etc. With an arcanoscience that useful, would there not have been devotees in smaller numbers elsewhere in the world? I mean, after the necrostorms started hitting hard and fast, they'd stop or get lynched, but the opportunity was there...
No. 3551 ID: 43d730

Separately, where did the Caele cities hit? Some sense of scale would be appreciated.
No. 3552 ID: f95872

>Possibly an explanation for why Tiamat was able to seize control of the Kobolds so easily?
Tiamat made the kobolds from scratch.

>Before the Great Fuckup, necromancy was safer, yes? Less in the way of necrostorms
There were no necrostorms at all.

>would there not have been devotees in smaller numbers elsewhere in the world?
I'm sure, but since the goblin lands were the center of Necromantic learning, most aspiring necromancers would likely have ended up there anyway, before they got too powerful.
No. 3553 ID: 43d730

There MUST be some story behind Tiamat trying to make minions and ending up with cutebolds.

Well, yes. But there would at least be the basics of other traditions across the world, presumably from which modern necromancy originates.
No. 3556 ID: 1f9939

>>There MUST be some story behind Tiamat trying to make minions and ending up with cutebolds.

Well Tiamat was insane at that point. Going Highlander on the rest of the Scaled Court left her with issues. (Multiple personalities, all of them driven insane by the merger warring against each other?)

>>So you're proposing that the Great Fuckup be a result of divine vengeance.
Not specifically, but that is how history would report it. Very powerful forces were involved in the creation of Bongo Bongo and bad things happened as a result. If it wasn't nature, the gods or the Outsiders it could just have been a magical law like the conservation of energy. You can't mess with forces like that and expect to get off scott free.

The Draconians had dealings with the Outsiders, and they wound up going insane, eating each other and dying off. Coincidence?
No. 3557 ID: 1f9939

>>Before the Great Fuckup, necromancy was safer, yes?

Yes. And you are right in that it is still practiced. It is one of the minor cults that operate in secret. Once you get a reputation for blowing up the world and waking the Hungry Dead you can't exactly hang a shingle out and advertise your services.

No. 3559 ID: 43d730
File 127149562567.png - (514.12KB , 743x1125 , 1271453778959.png )

Well, yes, I was just noting that the skills the Jareths have might be wildly different, since all of the really powerful and capable necromancers got their shit ruined by the Great Fuckup. People would either have had to improvise, or glean whatever scraps of knowledge they could from the ones that didn't die in the fuckup or the confusion afterwards.

Pestered the /tg/ drawfags until I got pic related. Thanks, beeg!
No. 3563 ID: 96545b


>Tiamat made the kobolds from scratch.

No? She just rounded them up and used them as cannon fodder to war against the Faestir.
No. 3564 ID: 96545b


>Fae/Gentry distinction

I'm against doing that. There's no "pretty" fae. They're all horrible, incomprehensible monsters. If they appear beautiful, it's simply the observing mind's way of coping and trying to form the image of the fae into a coherent whole. To separate them into one lovecraftian and one pretty group negates the point of having them in the first place.
No. 3565 ID: f95872

There was, at least, some discussion of the possibility of her having made them from scratch, though upon checking it doesn't seem to have made it to the wiki.

Since they have no other proposed origin, I would suggest that we use that, though perhaps Tiamat made them longer ago, during the Draco/Fae war.

Incidentally, Sergals also lack an origin.

>There's no "pretty" fae.
What? Fuck that. There are no nice fae. There are no fae with empathy. But there can be pretty fae. There is absolutely no reason why the Fae shouldn't be able to observe mortal aesthetic preferences and shape themselves accordingly. Though things should still be subtly wrong with their appearance, so as to make it unsettling despite the otherwordly beauty.
No. 3567 ID: 96545b


Well, everything doesn't have to be made by the Draconians. I suggest the Sergals have their own native cosmology, pantheon and origin story, independent of the other races' mythology.
No. 3568 ID: 96545b


Your previous post suggested there should be a differentiation between the Outsiders and the Fae, that's really what I took issue with, since I'd prefer them to be the same entities, just with different names. One and the same member of the Gentry would appear as a being of blinding beuty or a horrifying nightmarish monstrocity, but it would be the same entity.
No. 3571 ID: f95872

Well, that's basically what I meant anyway.

Everything has to be made by something. Except the original five gods, and the ocean. And whatever does the making has to exist.
No. 3572 ID: 844d84


In the original threads, there was consensus on leaving the cosmology and mythology open. Each race would have its own versions, they'd be conflicting and possibly refer to the same entities by different names, but that would be just one of several possible interpretations.

If we reduce everything to just 5 gods making everything, we lose the ambiguity and the setting becomes just another D&D world where the gods are revealed, tangible and accessible.
No. 3574 ID: f95872

These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, though. I always perceived the religion as somewhat similar to religion during the early roman era; everyone has gods that they worship. Mostly, they're the same individuals with different names. While all specifics pertaining to religion are unknown, certain truths are observable, and certain beliefs are widely held. There's no reason that must preclude conflict. Consider Theistic vs. Animistic: The animists don't believe that the five older gods are anything special, just that they were first. Theists (Sidhe and Dwarves) believe that the five older gods are the only true gods. The Faestir worship a few great mortals, now deceased, and care very little about the old gods or spirits of things. The Wila draw no distinctions between types of deities. The Gnolls only really follow their creator, the Moon. The Furnshakti follow all the spirits. The kobolds follow the spirits only of small, observable things. The Aurelians believe that the five older gods are in fact one being with five forms, something which the kobolds would find evocative of great evil.
The Toltecatl and Chtonic Cultists worship a single entity (each, not one for both of them) and believe other spirits to be not worthy of their attention.
The Corgyn recognize three of the five older gods, and recognize only two of them as divine. This could be attributed to their own origins, of course, as it's quite possible that not all of the gods recognize the Corgyn.

I think it's not too conflict limiting to suggest that Sergals arose from something which some non-Sergals might find reflects their own understanding of the universe.

The more pertinent issue is that we seem to have all taken to discussing religion from the standpoint of the Sidhe and Dwarves. It indicates that others may be insufficiently compelling.
No. 3576 ID: d6cb21

Well, Rain is likely to be a part of the Sergal's cosmology, at least.
No. 3577 ID: 43d730

I'm wondering if they'd even remember or care after her, yeah.
Just what survived from that purge? And do the Southerners remember?
No. 3578 ID: f95872

There's a cult of her these days, but this gets me thinking... What if Sergals believe in reincarnation? Rain could be the incarnation of some fuckawesome historical figure, like who or what ever created the sergals. This could tie in to her shape changing, and add more reason for her rise to power than just "strong and mean lol".

Problem is, I have no real idea how the origin story should be composed.
No. 3579 ID: 844d84


Rain is probably the ONLY part of Sergal cosmology. She made the Sergal nation into what it is today. Without her, they would still be warring savage tribes, no better than Gnolls. It's likely that the Sergal creation myth includes Rain killing the old Sergal gods and eating them to gain their power. Which might be what actually happened, but what it also does is provide a convenient excuse for replacing worship of the old gods with worship of Rain: she _is_ all of them now.

I imagine the Sergal pantheon as being similar to the Babylonian pantheon: each god being an ancient tribe chieftain, city-state ruler or warlord that rose to particular prominence and subsequently became a deity.
No. 3580 ID: f95872

Rain was only born a little over 100 years ago. While religion is culturally marginalized, the beliefs that predate Rain should still be predominant. Sergals as a group predate Rain by an as-of-yet unspecified amount. Their creation thus cannot involve Rain - at least not directly, which is why I suggested reincarnation. It occurs to me that this could be used to explain why having yellow eyes was such a big deal.
No. 3582 ID: e26151


I didn't talk about their creation in >>313579 , I was discussing the cultural impact that Rain had on the sergal people, and it's established that she was the one who made them into an empire and reformed them from nomads and warring clans into a city-dwelling, industrial nation. It's pretty obvious that whatever religious beliefs the sergals used to have, Rain did away with by either outlawing or reforming. The wiki mentions the sergals used to be shamanistic, we can go with that, but shamanism is no longer a factor for any sergals other than the free southern tribe remnants.
No. 3583 ID: 43d730

I'm seeing the rise of Rain as something like the Meiji restoration, only with more dropping of culture and the japanese going out immediately after and conquering a fair chunk of china and southeast asia.
Agreed on the lack of anything but a state religion among anybody but the southern free tribes. Have to have the godless heathens of the setting somewhere, or at least the stereotype.
...That brings things back around to the academy in Silvorum. Comparative religion classes? The basics of shamanism that work for everyone, and are fairly simple? Or no priests of any sort whatsoever? Maybe a sort of advanced, scientific shamanism?
No. 3586 ID: f95872

Saying they were shamanistic is basically the same as saying they were animistic. Which is fine, but it doesn't have anything to do with origin.

>...That brings things back around to the academy in Silvorum. Comparative religion classes? The basics of shamanism that work for everyone, and are fairly simple? Or no priests of any sort whatsoever? Maybe a sort of advanced, scientific shamanism?
There should be some sort of classes on it, but I'd imagine that they're practical or historical; these shamanistic practices work, here's how you do them, or this is what folks used to do and why. These are, of course, not mutually exclusive.
No. 3587 ID: 96545b


Suppose Rain absorbed the power of the old Sergal gods, and then left. That would put the sergals in the unique position of having "no gods or kings". The state religion of the Empire could have the thesis that Rain will return once the sergals have proven that they can support themselves, without relying on gods. This would provide the impetus for keeping the expansionistic, aggressive policies that Rain used to have; if we only conquer enough peoples, colonize enough land, build enough armies, She will return to us again!

The temptation to return to worship of the old gods is probably very great, since it's only been a century or so since they were deposed, and in the Empire, that would be seen as HERESY and persecuted to the full extent of the law. Scientific practices based on shamanism of old prevail, specifically in battlefield medicine and related areas, but it's been purged of ritualistic and religious elements; we know it works, we don't know why, let's experiment and find out.

This is why I don't like a unified cosmology; now that we've established what 5 races were made by the 5 respective gods, what do we do with the others? Were the sergals made by the Darkness? I dunno, I think they should have a cosmology and origin story completely unrelated to the Big 5. Also, I'm not very interested in their _actual_ origin, but rather on the impact their myhs and legends have on their current politics and history.
No. 3588 ID: f95872

>Suppose Rain absorbed the power of the old Sergal gods, and then left.
I like this conceptually, but I'm not sure how to really make it work.

It also requires a more solid idea of the previous deities.

I'm very wary of this, as it seems to me that it is largely at ends with existing fluff, both that cannibalized from furry vilous, and that which has been added since.

>Were the sergals made by the Darkness?
My thinking was that the Gentry could have been made by the darkness. Or the doobies, though I personally like the idea that doobies are fae that have attained mortality.

>I think they should have a cosmology and origin story completely unrelated to the Big 5.
I think so too.

A thought occurs to me, there could be an unrelated god who made them. Perhaps Vilous, though that's somewhat inconsistent with the idea that land is all Earth's body. Thoughts?

(thematic note - a deity which can create a race is likely to ruffle theistic feathers)
No. 3589 ID: f95872

It occurs to me that the Sergals could be the children, jointly, of Tatola and Sailzane.
No. 3590 ID: 95f26d


The continents as separate gods? Could work, I guess. If we go by the look of the sergals, shark-raptor-wolf people, they could have had water-dwelling ancestors that were "exiled" from the sea onto land and were adopted by another god, maybe the god of Villious.

Also, maybe the Gentry weren't as much made by the Darkness as they are aspects of it. Its hands, its fingers, its smile...
No. 3591 ID: 95f26d

>I like this conceptually, but I'm not sure how to really make it work.

I don't think Rain killed and ate the god that created the Sergals, since over time that god was forgotten and the sergals turned to worship of local spirits and powerful ancestors. In my idea, when Rain unified the empire, whenever she defeated a particular tribe or clan she would kill and ritually eat the shaman of that tribe and consume him/her with the tribe's totem objects, thereby taking the power of whatever spirit that tribe worshiped, and forcing the tribe to venerate her if they wanted to keep their traditions alive.
No. 3595 ID: 43d730

"The best way to make someone lean on you is to kick their legs out from under them."
-Chapter 12, The Collected Thoughts and Musings of The Glorious Governor-General Rain
No. 3597 ID: 1f9939

Very nice, >>313591 and >>313595.

"Fascinating work professor. So she created a new mythology, one where she consumed the older gods?"
"Not exactly. That's the folk interpretation of her method of dealing with troublemakers, which were frequently religious leaders in the early consolidation phase."
"Which was?"
"She ate them. She literally ate people. Did I not make that clear?"

I wouldn't get too hung up over which god did what. Lots of claims are made and both blood and ink is spilled over who is the chosen of what, but it is all just stories. Nobody really knows since the gods aren't talking.

There are some naturalists with ideas, but they are only circulated in private letters amongst sympathetic scholars. Even the kno